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Bundle: 557
Archive-Message-Number: 7003
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 94 13:39:56 CST
From: [-- REDACTED --] (David Johnson)
Subject: TNE Background 2

Gentlesophonts:

Ah, the discussion continues!  I'll bet if I took my survey of postings
for the second half of March we'd have a much more balanced discussion.
Now on to Thursday night's contributions.
 
[-- REDACTED --] (Ron Dawson) writes:
  
> After a while though I've
> come to believe that the Imperium had to be killed.  
> MT and CT has explained away much of the mystery of the ancients, and as
> others have said, there were few frontiers.  The only really interesting
> exploration seemed to be part of the Zhodhani core expiditions.  Of the
> frontier and ancients mysteries, the ancients "history" particularly
> bothered me.  Am I alone, or does the grandfather story sound lame?  I
> never liked that story line, and it ruined the "ancient" mystery for me.

I thought Grandfather was dumb too.  In fact the whole idea of the Ancients
was just too much of a gimmick for my tastes (like the Virus), but TNE
hasn't elimiated Ancient technology, although I guess we don't know yet
for certain how it has been affected by the Virus.  I guess the point is
there isn't anything about TNE that improves this situation (assuming you're
like Ron and me and feel it had some room for improvement).

There could have been *Imperial* Core Expeditions (possibly in cooperation
with the Zhos? Or maybe a `core race'?), as well as Spin, Trail and Rim
Expeditions.  A Solomani Rebellion would have added just as much bloodshed
and mayhem as the Imperial Rebellion and might even have produced a more
sympathetic regime on the Homeworld of Humaniti (and weren't the Solomani
apparatchiks just the sort of *universal bad guys* that the Virus now is?).

This isn't `whining for the old days'.  The point I'm trying to make is that,
so far, *all* of the advantages claimed for TNE *from a background point of
view* could have been accomplished in the Imperium campaign.  Given this
fact(?), why should anyone buy TNE except that it's the only `game' in town?
If the only car available was a Yugo would everyone not only rush out to buy
one but also be clamoring about how great it was?  (Again, this ignores
issues related to the rules system.)

> So, there was no mystery, and the imperium seemed impregnable. 
> With the TNE setting, the entire imperium is a mystery outside of the
> Spinward Marches or whatever little pocket empire you use as your
> setting.

I think it was established last night that the above is only relevant for
those who were unwilling to venture beyond the developed regions of the
Imperium.

> We don't know what the jeck the black curtain is.

Black curtain?  Do tell!

> We don't
> know what happened to the Solomani.

Maybe they're now the United Federation of Planets?  :-)

> We don't really know what's going
> on in the Aslan Hierate.

Maybe they're exporting compact gravcars and becomming an economic
superpower?  :-)

> There is a lot of mystery out there, lots of
> stuff to work with.

If `out there' means *only* Gushemege, Dagudashaag, Core, Zarushagar,
Ilelish, Diaspora, Daibei, and the rest of the developed regions of the
Old Imperium.


"Susan M. Shock" [-- REDACTED --] writes:

> I'm a little ticked off at the TNE rules, but I have no beef with the
> setting.

Okay, so `having no beef' with something is a good enough reason to buy it?
I would like to know, still, what is *better* about the TNE setting.

> Also, a lot of people have been complaining that TNE is just T:2000 in
> space
> and I submit that this has to do with emphasis placed by the players and
> the GM
> in the campaign, In my campaign, the Star Vikings are an EXPLORATORY force.
> They view themselves as descendants of the IISS. They are combat-trained,
> yes,
> and they aren't afraid to use that training, especially when pursuing their
> secondary goal of recovering lost technology, but reexploration and
> rediscovery
> is the primary emphasis

The point about the attitudes of refs and players is an excellent one.
This is the first opinion I've heard that has expressed something
other than the `post-holocaust' attitude of TNE.  Maybe we're on to
something here.  But again, I must ask, what is `better' about playing
the Star Vikings as descendants of the IISS than playing true Scouts on
an Imperial Core Expedition or some such thing?  Or if you don't like
the idea of TL15 explorers how about scouts from a smaller, lower TL
state somewhere on the frontier of the Imperium setting?  There was an
excellent article in *Gryphon* (I believe) several years ago in which
Mark Miller (we miss you) discussed an `ideal' Traveller campaign
setting: a small federation somewhere beyond the fringes of the Imperium.
(And he didn't have to destroy the entire universe to find it!)

> I think the griping about the changes in the Traveller universe tech is
> about 50% legit and 50% simple complaining by people who can't tolerate
> change.

Another good point.  But change just for the sake of change (especially
when I have to get up off my wallet to do so) doesn't sound like such
a good thing to me.  That's why I've posed the question "what about the
TNE setting is an improvement over previous eras?".

 
Joni M Virolainen [-- REDACTED --] writes:
 
> In CT the Imperium is stable maybe slowly
> expanding and there is lot of Hi-Tech in contrast to TNE where is lot to
> expand and little Hi-Tech readily available.

Here's an important point.  If you like the instability and unknown of TNE
you can have it on the frontiers of the Imperium campaign, but if you liked
the stability and civilization of the Imperium you're pretty much SOL in
TNE.  Choice?  Something for everyone?  Doesn't look like it.
 
> I have to admit that I run a Star Viking campaign but I *hope* that this is 
> only a bridge to something greater. I keep thinking that because I doubt that
> my players or me can find long-term fun from exploring and recontaction 
> worlds. Maybe GDW publishes material conserning RC's "developed" planets.

So, if I'm undestanding this point, that `something greater' would be a
`stable, advanced' region akin to the Old Imperium.  And if this is what
someone enjoys about Traveller then the place to find it in TNE is the
Regency.  So maybe TNE *does* still have something for everyone.  Maybe it
is *as good* as previous eras, but *better*?  No one's convinced me yet.
 
 
[-- REDACTED --] (Andy Lilly) writes:

> You don't need the rebellion or TNE hard times as background. The original
> Imperium gave you plenty of scope for adventure, action, etc. I guess some
> people just don't look hard enough...

This is just Andy's conclusion.  He makes an excellent case in several
preceding paragraphs.  See last night's posting for the whole thing.

> In answer, yes, lets have more background... I've got complete written records
> of every adventure I have run for my two Traveller groups, but they're a bit
> big just to download and they don't include the referee's details of each
> scenario. Perhaps some day I'll write another book about one

Maybe Rodge and Andy want to get together and set this up?


Lionheart \|/ [-- REDACTED --] writes:

>  Brent  [-- REDACTED --] writes...
> 
> >Well, no.  Not for me, anyway.  Technology has always been the
> >primary focus of my interest in Science Fiction.  The new background
> >severely cripples the technology that I have become accustomed to.
> 
> The solution here is then not to dwell on being Star Vikings from ye Olde
> Mudball worshipping a semi-sentient Air/raft but to dwell on being Regency
> marines...or High tech dudes.

I won't speak for Brent, but the question for me is: "Is a new campaign
that creates `problems' that need a `solution' much of an improvement?".

> The Virus so far has been seen as a destructive thing. Making people wary of
> technology...with the viral mutations you can have your Blakes 7 ORAC only
> smarter on board. Robots which are fully self aware. Technology designed by a
> super advanced AI...

Hey!  This is good!  I must admit I admire this sort of creativity.  (Even
if, ultimately, the idea of `good' viral mutations is just another
gimmick like Ancients technology - and not much of a basis for an entire
campaign.)

> Like Rodge said...when I think of TNE I think of wild-eyed
> loners standing at the gates of oblivion who havent told their
> parents what time they would be home for...

A great image!  :-)
 
> The saddest thing about losing the Imperium is that NEWBIES
> will not be able to get their mitts on the really old
> stuff..the background that I loved. Snippets are fine but the
> whole thing is much more satisfying. It's mostly gone now
> though if sufficient interest were spouted I'm sure someone if
> no GDW would produce a background pack for the new era...just
> for newbies who still want to play Pre-Collapse Revenants
> which IMHO is one of the most fun roles to play..

Let's hope the marketing department at GDW is listening.  :-)
If they keep to their guns with `New Coke' at least there's  still
hope for a `Classic Coke' licensing argreement.

Okay, after two rounds, here's the score as I see it.  Not much to recommend
TNE over previous eras except that you don't have to venture outside the
core of the Old Imperium (which allows you to `rediscover' worlds you were
familar with 70+ years ago) and the possibility of new `wonder gadgets'
derived from positive viral mutations.

And of course we've been ignoring one very important point.  It's much more
difficult for a game company to introduce a new product (you know, like
`new and improved Tide') that's basically just a repackaging of an exisiting
rules system without some corresponding `improvement' in the campaign
setting.  I realize that GDW is a business and thay have every right to
pursue their business interests as they see fit.  But I'm a consumer and
I've got my own interests - *and I'd like to buy some new Traveller
products*!  But I'm not going to buy anything they throw at me and so
far this is all TNE seems.  Is there anyone out there who would buy TNE
*for the background* (not the rules) if some sort of comparably priced
`Frontier Sourcebook' was on the shelf next to it?  If so, tell us why.
And if you wouldn't buy TNE over this `Sourcebook' but you bought
it because that's all there is, do you drive a Yugo?  :-)

Ding!  Ding!  Round 3!

David Johnson

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