David "PiperFan" Johnson  06-27-2019
03:52 UT
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~
Jon Crocker wrote:
> OK, yes, upon reflection there were a few references
> that I had noticed at the time - I should have
> remembered the Paula von Schleiten scholarships,
> and a few of the other examples, true.
Don't forget that Quinton was part Freyan too. . . . ;)
> I had totally missed the Lord Marshal was kin to one of
> the Nemesis command crew! You learn something new
> every day. :)
There
are dozens and dozens of characters named just in ~Uller Uprising~.
I've never taken the time to go through them but I'm guessing there are
lots of these sorts of tidbits throughout Beam's work.
> And point taken that at least the Fuzzies were still there.
The
interesting question here is, what are those other fourteen sophont
species? Freyans (1). Lokians (2). Ullerans (3). Svants (4).
Yggdrasil Khoograhs (5). Gimlians (6). Kwanns (7). Sheshans (8).
Thorans (9). Hathorites (10).
That's all I've got--and it's
likely Paul didn't consider Freyans a separate sophont species at that
point, so there are like five "new" sophont species. . . .
>We could probably compile a 'wish list' for things that
> had popped up as background in the stories - things like
> a passing character complaining how impossible it was to
> pull a fast one past a Kragan, no wonder they were
> running that place.
Thing
is I can't recall an Ulleran ever being mentioned after ~Uprising~. We
see some Uller fire-opals here and there but no Ullerans.
> Or one of the many Rodericks or Pauls ruminating that
> there hadn't been a problem quite like this since the
> multi-world Poictesme Republic,
I
think, eventually, Merlin must have taken Poictesme into hiding. If it
survives into the Viking era I'm guessing it does so deep in the shadow
of an Old Federation "civilized world."
> or the New Worlds League, finally consented to enter
> the Empire as individual worlds.
I think the League is quickly subsumed by the revitalized Mardukan monarchy.
> True, you get better stories out of a strong plot, and
> pan-planetary utopias don't seem to offer strong plots.
> In some ways, though, I wouldn't mind if a few more
> glints of enduring upward progress made it through,
> here and there.
I
hear you but this really wasn't Beam's thing. He seemed very committed
to the idea that "nothing lasts." Doesn't take much understanding of
his personal life to get why he might have reached that conclusion.
On
the other hand, by choosing the descendants of Nazis and Vichy French
as the protagonists of his first Future History yarn he was showing us
that there were "positive" opportunities in this view too. Nothing
lasts--nothing good, and nothing bad.
Remember Ashmodai! Remember Belphegor!
David
--
"I
believe the first one, also a General von Schlichten, was what was then
known as a war-criminal." - Carlos von Schlichten (H. Beam Piper),
~Uller Uprising~
~
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Jon Crocker 06-27-2019
02:34 UT
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OK, yes, upon reflection there were a few references that I had noticed
at the time - I should have remembered the Paula von Schleiten
scholarships, and a few of the other examples, true.
I had totally missed the Lord Marshal was kin to one of the Nemesis command crew! You learn something new every day. :)
And point taken that at least the Fuzzies were still there.
We
could probably compile a 'wish list' for things that had popped up as
background in the stories - things like a passing character complaining
how impossible it was to pull a fast one past a Kragan, no wonder they
were running that place. Or one of the many Rodericks or Pauls
ruminating that there hadn't been a problem quite like this since the
multi-world Poictesme Republic, or the New Worlds League, finally
consented to enter the Empire as individual worlds.
True, you
get better stories out of a strong plot, and pan-planetary utopias don't
seem to offer strong plots. In some ways, though, I wouldn't mind if a
few more glints of enduring upward progress made it through, here and
there.
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David "PiperFan" Johnson 06-27-2019
01:46 UT
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~
Jon Crocker wrote:
> I've always assumed that Merlin's caretakers were careful
> to keep it well hidden.
That's
been my assumption too with the caveat that eventually something
catastrophic must happen to Merlin. First, because the Space Vikings
are going to be a monkey-wrench that Merlin was unable to anticipate
effectively. And second, because Beam consistently shows us a hopeful
and optimistic ending but then shows us, in later yarns, that good
things never last.
> We never see that on-camera, though.
Just
like we never see Trask's League. Or a Kragan-led Federation Member
Republic of Uller. Or a prosperous Fenris. Or Kwanns in space. Etc.,
etc.
> In fact, the only instance I can think of where Piper
> explicitly referred back to a prior story was Ministry of
> Disturbance, where the Emperor thought that the Fuzzies
> were almost ready to be declared sapient under the
> talk-and-build-a-fire rule. That point kind of cheesed
> me off, I admit.
There
are lots of other examples--James mentions Paula Quinton but also the
~Hubert Penrose~ in "Naudsonce," or the Durendal Lord Marshal in
"Ministry" with the same name as a ~Nemesis~ signals-and-detection
officer, or Foxx Travis on Kwannon--but I think what Piper was doing in
this case was showing us, yet again, that "good things in the long run
are often tough while they're happening." He is showing us that despite
the best efforts of folks like Jack Holloway and Ruth Ortheris-Van
Riebeek, Fuzzies will continue to struggle to be recognized as being
sapient.
Of course, Beam's also telling us here that the
impending extinction of the Fuzzies was somehow averted. So, a good
thing in the long run. ;)
Cheers,
David
--
"Good things in the long run are often tough while they're happening." - Otto Harkaman (H. Beam Piper), ~Space Viking~
~
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David Sooby 06-26-2019
23:14 UT
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Jon Crocker said:
> I've always assumed that Merlin's caretakers were careful to keep it well hidden. We
> never see that on-camera, though.
If
Merlin continued to provide analysis and advice to the leaders of
Poictesme, then there should have been a region of stability during the
interregnum. It's true that Merlin's predictive abilities were limited
by the accuracy and timeliness of the information fed into it. It's also
true that what makes a "dark ages" is a breakdown in communications and
safe travel, which will further restrict the ability to feed info to
Merlin that has any significance beyond the immediate vicinity of
Poictesme. Nonetheless, if Merlin continued to provide sound advice,
then Poictesme and its immediate vicinity should have been a bright spot
in the dark ages; the Maxwell Plan would have provided exactly that.
But there is no evidence that this happened. SPACE VIKING contains no
reference at all to any such "civilized" planet outside the old,
long-settled worlds of the Core of what once was the Federation.
Of
course, as they say, "Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence",
but if we're looking for the most likely explanation rather than the
least likely one, then it certainly looks like Merlin did not continue
to act as advisor much past the end of the COSMIC COMPUTER story.
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jimmyjoejangles 06-26-2019
13:05 UT
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In Oomphel In The Sky Miles Gilbert got educated on a Paula
VonSChleiten SCholarship. WHich is is an obvious reference to Uller
Uprising. Also the talk and build fire rule was thrown out as not
good before the events of Little Fuzzy as the lawyer points out. So I
have to say I don't remember that in Ministry of Disturbance. Nor would
it make sense for the emperor to be making that type of ruling hundreds
of years later, they were declared sapient at the end of Little FUzzy.
Pardon my spelling I am an Audiobooker. And I just remembered that Travis Fox makes his first appearance in Oomphel. Edited 06-26-2019 13:46
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Jon Crocker 06-26-2019
06:02 UT
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If you read Graveyard of Dreams first, then Cosmic Computer, that will give the best results. Hoorary for happy accidents!
I've always assumed that Merlin's caretakers were careful to keep it well hidden. We never see that on-camera, though.
In
fact, the only instance I can think of where Piper explicitly referred
back to a prior story was Ministry of Disturbance, where the Emperor
thought that the Fuzzies were almost ready to be declared sapient under
the talk-and-build-a-fire rule. That point kind of cheesed me off, I
admit.
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David "PiperFan" Johnson 06-26-2019
01:28 UT
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~
Tim Tow wrote:
> I must be forgetting things. Now that you've mentioned
> it, I remember Graveyard of Dreams ending like that.
> Maybe I never read Cosmic Computer.
Oh, you're going to love it! It's one of Beam's best novels.
> One thing that I was wondering about recently is if Piper
> had lived longer, would he have started writing in the
> fantasy genre or what his opinions on the fantasy genre
> were?
Well, "Dearest" is a fantasy yarn. It's "low fantasy" rather than "high fantasy" so that may tell us a bit about his opinions.
"Dearest"
was published in 1951 but Beam never returned to that genre (as far as
we know), so perhaps that tells us a bit about his opinions too.
Cheers,
David
--
"Considering
the one author about whom I am uniquely qualified to speak, I question
if any reader of H. Beam Piper will long labor under the
misunderstanding that he is a pious Christian, a left-wing liberal, a
Gandhian pacifist, or a teetotaler." - H. Beam Piper, "Double: Bill
Symposium" interview
~
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Tim Tow 06-25-2019
13:04 UT
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I must be forgetting things. Now that you've mentioned it, I remember
Graveyard of Dreams ending like that. Maybe I never read Cosmic
Computer.
One thing that I was wondering about recently is if
Piper had lived longer, would he have started writing in the fantasy
genre or what his opinions on the fantasy genre were?
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David Sooby 06-24-2019
14:30 UT
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Tim Tow said:
> I thought that Merlin never existed and had been a myth all along.
Well,
if you quit reading the book at any time up to about 3/4 of the way
thru, or maybe even a bit more, then you'd find nothing to disabuse you
of that idea!
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David "PiperFan" Johnson 06-24-2019
14:29 UT
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~
Tim Tow wrote:
> I thought that Merlin never existed and had been a
> myth all along. It has been a long time since I read
> Cosmic Computer though.
Seems
like you're remembering "Graveyard of Dreams," Tim, the novelet which
was expanded into ~Junkyard Planet~ (~The Cosmic Computer~). How
exciting that you can read it again as something new!
http://www.hostigos.com/book_info.php?id=H_13
It's a very good yarn.
Remember Ashmodai! Remember Belphegor!
David
--
"Do
you know which books to study, and which ones not to bother with? Or
which ones to read first, so that what you read in the others will be
comprehensible to you? That's what they'll give you [at university].
The tools, which you don't have now, for educating yourself." - Bish
Ware (H. Beam Piper), ~Four-Day Planet~
~
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Tim Tow 06-24-2019
05:08 UT
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I thought that Merlin never existed and had been a myth all along. It has been a long time since I read Cosmic Computer though.
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David Sooby 06-23-2019
15:49 UT
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I presume Merlin was either destroyed or, with repeated use, broke down
and ceased functioning. The latter seems inevitable, sooner or later;
replacement circuits were no longer being made, and with the general
breakdown of galactic commerce, it seems unlikely that level of
sophistication in computer tech would have been re-created during a
"dark ages" period.
Certainly there is no evidence in any later
story that Merlin had any effect on history, nor is there any later
reference to "Merlin" or to a super-computer.
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David "PiperFan" Johnson 06-22-2019
04:15 UT
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~
From the Archives: "What happened to Merlin?"
Below, another
message to the old PIPER-L mailing list, from nineteen years ago, way
back in June 2000, which, in the context of discussing why we don't see
Merlin in the Future History yarns which come after ~Junkyard Planet~,
gets to the heart of why the Space Vikings turned out to be such a "wild
card" for Merlin's predictive capabilities:
---
Subject: Re: What happened to Merlin?
From: Harold S. "Woody" Wood
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 18:06:25 -0400
Gentlemen & Ladies of the List;
Allow me to point out a couple of things about Merlin and its ability to
foretell the future.
a. Somewhere early on in Cosmic Computer (Junkyard Planet) it is pointed
out that the 3rd Force Army Headquarters is 30 parsecs from the fighting
front. I don't think you can really say that this is very close to the
front. Long way to me anyway.
b. Having worked in Threat and Intentions (part of the intelligence world),
I can totally understand how Merlin was surprised by the collapse of SSA.
Heck, we had all sort of information about Saddam's little idea for Kuwaitt
and we were still surprised (not to mention amazed) when he started moving
South. We call it intelligence lag. The Area of Operations (AO) is so far
from the site of the action that the transmission time defeats your analysis
of the data (not to mention the fact that you also have to deal with the
political leadership's reluctance to admit that things are falling apart at
times.
c. In the data updates done for Merlin right after the war and at the time
of the rediscovery, it would not be possible (if I understand the time lines
correctly) for the data concerning the escape of part of the SSA's Navy and
personnel to be included in the updates as it was not known at these times.
This leads me to believe that the Merlin Plan and the later Maxwell Plan did
not include anything about Space Vikings.
Maybe it is possible that the Sword Worlds are on one side of the old
Federation and Poictesme on the other or something like that.
Just my two cents worth, for what's it worth.
Woody
-----
Woody's original message is available here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20080310040255...l&T=0&F=&S=&P=32282
Woody
hits the nail on the head: there's likely no way Merlin could predict
the Space Vikings because it has no information about the Alliance
refugees who fled from Abigor.
Cheers,
David
--
"We
talk glibly about ten to the hundredth power, but emotionally we still
count, 'One, Two, Three, Many.'" - Otto Harkaman (H. Beam Piper), ~Space
Viking~
~
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