Tanith in Oz  09-27-2017
13:03 UT
|
~
David "PiperFan" Johnson wrote:
> If I were Australia in the years after the Thirty Days' War I might cut some sort of deal with Britain (and
> France?) and those Occupied Eastern Axis parts of what had formerly been the Commonwealth (and perhaps
>
former French colonies) in southern Asia: the opportunity to settle in
these "northern reaches" in exchange > for defending them from others
fleeing the rest of Eurasia. . . .
What a brilliant idea. I
must admit that is so glaringly obvious that I'm ashamed I did not think
of that. If this were to be adopted then not only does it allow for the
growth of the Northern Cities, but it might also explain why we hear
nothing about other cultures escaping to Australia (except for the
Brits).
I like this idea very much. Good one.
Let's print that.
Lol
Terry
|
David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-27-2017
04:13 UT
|
~
Terry "Tanith in Oz" Glouftsis wrote:
> I have only been trying to advocate based
> on what Piper might have imagined from a
> 1950s position, based on what the world
> was like at his time.
Sounds like a sound approach to me!
> If the entire Northern Hemisphere was to
> be destroyed in a catastrophic nuclear war
> then it's straining plausibility to suggest
> that any kind of migration from the fallout
> would be civilized.
Agreed.
Things will look markedly different in the aftermath of the Fourth
World War than they did after the Thirty Days' War seventy or eighty
years earlier.
> Except for the Americans in Antarctica and
> perhaps the British going to Melbourne any
> survivors would be desperate.
If
the Americans evacuate to Antarctica--and the British to
Australia--that will be after the Thirty Days' War. With planet-busters
falling down from orbit in the Fourth World War I don't believe there
will be any formal evacuations--though I suppose it's possible the
British (or perhaps the Commonwealth, if that becomes an organization
more like the first Terran Federation) Government might move to
Melbourne during the course of the War. . . . (I'm guessing the
Americans move their capital to Antarctica at some point too.)
> So called "safe" countries really wouldn't be
> in a position to stop thousands of refugees
> from flooding their borders.
Again,
with orbital bombardment--or interplanetary attacks by Abbot-drive
warships--there likely won't be many refugees from the North, other than
the sort of haphazard--and lucky--small groups Jon has mentioned.
> The Northern parts of
> the country are therefore very sparsely settled,
> and besides a few cities there are really only
> three of note.
Even
though there won't be many folks arriving in these areas of Australia
in the aftermath of the Fourth World War it's possible these regions
might get a fair number of folks fleeing former Commonwealth nations
(including, possibly, Occupied, former Eastern Axis India) in the
decades between the Thirty Days' War and the Fourth World War.
> It is an island continent. There are no
> borders to fence and patrol. Therefore
> Australia would not be able to stop
> thousands of people coming ashore in Far
> North Queensland, the Northern Territory
> or North Western Australia, it's just not
> possible.
If
I were Australia in the years after the Thirty Days' War I might cut
some sort of deal with Britain (and France?) and those Occupied Eastern
Axis parts of what had formerly been the Commonwealth (and perhaps
former French colonies) in southern Asia: the opportunity to settle in
these "northern reaches" in exchange for defending them from others
fleeing the rest of Eurasia. . . .
> I also think this might happen too in
> places like Brazil,
I'm
guessing cooperative efforts to hold off North and Central American
refugees go a long way toward building the South American solidarity
Beam suggests is a key part of the formation of the (second) Terran
Federation.
> Mocambique and Rhodesia.
I agree southern
Africa will be the most tumultuous place in the years after the Thirty
Days' War. The difference, of course, is that both the (first) Terran
Federation and the British may have reasonably strong footholds there
(and may even cooperate to "hold the line"
against other refugees
trying to make their way down from northern Africa). That might also be
what gives South Africa--still in the Commonwealth until late in the
period when Beam was writing--itself breathing room to maintain its
independence . . . and thus go on to help found the (second) Terran
Federation.
> This leads me to believe that you would
> end up with much larger Northern cities
> than is currently the case in Australia.
I think that's likely too, and that these settlements will be substantial even before the Fourth World War breaks out.
> But I'm not convinced the victors in any
> war that destroys a hemisphere would
> really be capable of stopping refugees
> fleeing in any direction.
I
don't think there are any victors in the Fourth World War (unless,
perhaps, those folks on Mars and Venus who "revolted"). Beam tells us
the Southerners were, mostly, on the sidelines in the Fourth World War.
> I think chaos would rule and in that
> situation it would be dog eat dog. Sheer
> numerical superiority would reign, and
> though there would be some isolated
> areas on the planet that would resist as
> a whole I don't see much of a co-ordinated
> effort.
I
agree it will be brutal but I don't think there will be many refugees.
The Fourth World War--the First Interplanetary War--will leave the
North devastated in much they way Dale has described: the infrastructure
necessary for any mass evacuations will have been destroyed.
That will prove, in its way, a godsend for the folks in the South.
> I think Piper was vague on this because
> he may not wanted to have become
> bogged down in the sheer logistics of it.
Agreed. (It also wasn't the sort of thing you sold yarns about to American pulp editors when he was writing either.)
> It's clear he thought the Americans would
> survive (and that is due to himself being
> American)
Actually,
he shows us that American "civilization" _doesn't_ survive. From the
political structure of the (second) Terran Federation to small details
like the insignia of its military forces Beam abandoned the markers that
would suggest a robust American presence in the Federation era. (Sure,
the social culture seems "American" but that's because that was the
culture of the marketplace he was selling into.)
> But I haven't seen anywhere where he
> states all the enemy powers were
> completely destroyed in the process.
We don't even know who the _adversaries_ were in the Fourth World War. What we know is that the Americans don't survive. . . .
> Nor does he say that everyone in the
> North died, so we cannot assume that
> with a pen he blinked out a majority of
> the human population.
He's
pretty clear that Northern "civilization" is destroyed. There are
plenty of Northern "barbarians" who nevertheless "survive."
> So I guess the question then becomes do
> we speculate based on what he wrote or
> do we apply what might be likely in the
> real world if something like this were to
> happen?
Because
Beam was writing in a fictional world--there is no contragravity or
hyperdrive in the "real world" (and no one in the "real world" has any
idea how either of those things might possibly work)--I prefer to
speculate on the basis of what he wrote (and the "real world" as he
might have understood it at the time he was writing).
Others' MMV. ;)
David
--
"That's
probably why the Southern Hemisphere managed to stay out of the Third
and Fourth World Wars" - Carlos von Schlichten (H. Beam Piper), ~Uller
Uprising~
~
|
David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-27-2017
00:47 UT
|
~
Jon Crocker wrote:
> If there were people able to refugee out
> from WW4, great - a few tens of thousands
> grabbed whatever ships were in the
> harbour, drove south on the Pan-American
> Highway, probably a few places got
> overrrun with refugees before the local
> governments were able to hold the line
> at some point. A few hundred years later,
> either they had assimilated or become one
> of those irreconcilable minority-groups
> that were mentioned earlier.
Agreed.
As Beam told us with Von Schlichten's Nazi ancestors, some folks will
always manage to escape. But as you suggest these folks won't play
significant roles in the socio-political or cultural evolution of the
Federation era.
> More seriously, in a world as big as ours,
> a writer could make a case for an enclave
> of pretty much any group he wanted
> transplanted somewhere else.
Agreed
again. A great yarn might be crafted around such individuals but if
we're looking to larger future-historical trends in the Federation era
we have to look mostly to Southern Hemisphere folks (including those
Northerners who evacuated after the Thirty Days' War) and the
interplanetary colonists scattered across the Solar system when Northern
civilization was destroyed in the Fourth World War.
> Icelanders on an epic sea voyage in small
> fishing boats, a Soviet 'fishing trawler'
> that was grabbed by panicky fishermen
> outside a NATO port, comandeered to
> take their families to safety. The 'Little
> Okinawa' quarter in Canberra.
After
the Thirty Days' War perhaps. After the Fourth World War it will be
folks like, say, the rebels who held out at Wellstown on Mars or maybe
the Free Antarcticans who escaped to Callisto. . . .
Tchau,
David
--
"The
Quintons had to leave France about the same time; they were what was
known as collaborationists." - Paula Quinton (H. Beam Piper), ~Uller
Uprising~
~
|
Tanith in Oz 09-26-2017
13:02 UT
|
Ok. That's understandable. I have only been trying to advocate based
on what Piper might have imagined from a 1950s position, based on what
the world was like at his time. However having said that Australian
attitudes to refugees didn't really change until maybe 5-10 years ago,
so I think it's still an accurate view.
But if we are actually
going to go into real world, then let's do that. If the entire Northern
Hemisphere was to be destroyed in a catastrophic nuclear war then it's
straining plausibility to suggest that any kind of migration from the
fallout would be civilized. Except for the Americans in Antarctica and
perhaps the British going to Melbourne any survivors would be desperate.
So called "safe" countries really wouldn't be in a position to stop
thousands of refugees from flooding their borders. So let's consider
Australia.
The majority of the Australian population resides in
the South east corner of the continent from Adelaide to Brisbane (with a
small group on the South West Australian coast around Perth). The
Northern parts of the country are therefore very sparsely settled, and
besides a few cities there are really only three of note. Darwin has
about 100 thousand residents today, and Cairns and Townsville have
around 150 K. All three cities are separated by thousands of miles of
distance. So there is a lot of room there to sneak in. Also you have to
factor in that Australia does not have a coast guard, nor do we have a
large enough navy to interdict the Torres Straight or the Arafura Sea.
It
is an island continent. There are no borders to fence and patrol.
Therefore Australia would not be able to stop thousands of people coming
ashore in Far North Queensland, the Northern Territory or North Western
Australia, it's just not possible. There might be an opportunity to
stop one location, but not multiple ones. In a nuclear holocaust
Australia would be totally unequipped to actually do anything to stop
from being swamped. I also think this might happen too in places like
Brazil, Mocambique and Rhodesia.
Now would Australians like this.
Of course not. There would be opposition. However having said that
given the devastation would they really do anything to stop it? I don't
think so. There might be claims there aren't enough resources, but
this isn't completely accurate. Australia is capable of sustaining a
much larger population but people would have to accept living in hotter
climes.
So I don't think this is matter of Australia wanting to
do anything, I think it's more a question of having no real other
choice. I think it's logical to suggest that emergency camps could then
be set up in the outback to cope with the influx. And once everything
settled down and the Second Federation really got rolling then some of
these people might be resettled elsewhere around the planet. But there
is a good chance that some of these people might choose to stay and
settle in placed like Cairns, Townsville, Darwin or even Alice Springs
where more population might be desired. This leads me to believe that
you would end up with much larger Northern cities than is currently the
case in Australia.
I completely accept that Piper never wrote
this, or alluded to it. But I'm not convinced the victors in any war
that destroys a hemisphere would really be capable of stopping refugees
fleeing in any direction. I think chaos would rule and in that
situation it would be dog eat dog. Sheer numerical superiority would
reign, and though there would be some isolated areas on the planet that
would resist as a whole I don't see much of a co-ordinated effort.
You
need an example? Ok let's use the same example of Germany mentioned
previously. We've seen just how ineffective European governments have
been with Syrian refugees, they just can't stop large numbers. Why?
Because who wants to shoot civilians fleeing from war atrocities. I see
the same happening with the aftermath of the 4th world war, but this
time on an enormous scale. Nowhere on the planet would be immune.
I
think Piper was vague on this because he may not wanted to have become
bogged down in the sheer logistics of it. It's clear he thought the
Americans would survive (and that is due to himself being American) but
he says not much else about the aftermath because destroying an entire
hemisphere comes with problems.
For example modern atmospheric
models have show that if the North became toxic, then equatorial winds
would eventually spread that planet wide (much like On the Beach
explores). Piper said that didn't happen so we must take him at his
word and accept that the North became uninhabitable. But I haven't seen
anywhere where he states all the enemy powers were completely destroyed
in the process. Nor does he say that everyone in the North died, so we
cannot assume that with a pen he blinked out a majority of the human
population. Because he doesn't say that, then we are left to ask what
actually happened? We know about some survivors who became barbarous,
and some others who fled but we don't know the fate of them all. So
where did they go? This is where his death robbed us of answers.
We can only speculate.
So
I guess the question then becomes do we speculate based on what he
wrote or do we apply what might be likely in the real world if something
like this were to happen? This is where the debate is.
Regards
Terry
|
Jon Crocker 09-26-2017
04:42 UT
|
I don't know if an exact accounting matters, frankly. If there were
people able to refugee out from WW4, great - a few tens of thousands
grabbed whatever ships were in the harbour, drove south on the
Pan-American Highway, probably a few places got overrrun with refugees
before the local governments were able to hold the line at some point. A
few hundred years later, either they had assimilated or become one of
those irreconcilable minority-groups that were mentioned earlier.
When
I parse it like that, I realize that those "irreconcilable
minority-groups" could include descendants of people who just happened
to be at sea when the balloon went up. Say a family-friendly cruise
ship. Would the 'Dizz-knee Cruze' planet have a bad reputation?
More
seriously, in a world as big as ours, a writer could make a case for an
enclave of pretty much any group he wanted transplanted somewhere else.
Icelanders on an epic sea voyage in small fishing boats, a Soviet
'fishing trawler' that was grabbed by panicky fishermen outside a NATO
port, comandeered to take their families to safety. The 'Little
Okinawa' quarter in Canberra.
|
David Sooby 09-26-2017
01:07 UT
|
David Johnson wrote:
> I'm not sure it makes a lot of sense to look at 1950s
> attitudes--or any actual ones since--in any part of the
> South to try to assess this. The horrors of the Thirty
> Days' War--and thus the scale of the refugee challenges
> --will be unprecedented in Terro-human history.
Right.
If
we need a current example, just look at what has happened in Germany
over the past few years. Germans were initially very welcoming of
refugees from Syria and other ares of "Arab spring" unrest, but public
opinion quickly shifted against a massive influx of refugees as the
reality sunk in of what happens when you try to crowd a lot more people
into the same space where people are already living.
And that's
not even in a nation trying to deal with the aftermath of a major war!
There are going to be shortages and rationing in such a situation, as
happened in England during and after WW II... or worse. Faced with such
widespread shortages, the inhabitants of the remaining few nations which
haven't collapsed are not going to be feeling very generous about
letting in even more mouths to feed.
This is another of those
things that I thought was self-evident, but with all the posts here
lately of what countries were accepting large numbers of refugees from
where, I guess it needs to be stated. In the aftermath of a world war so
devastating that the entire Northern hemisphere has been rendered
largely uninhabitable, it's hard to believe that any remaining stable
nation *anywhere* is going to be accepting large numbers of refugees.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clear ether!
David "Lensman" Sooby
|
David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-25-2017
15:08 UT
|
~
Terry "Tanith in Oz" Glouftsis wrote:
> and even defeated "Nuclear" Axis powers might
> have difficulty getting their refugees accepted.
Here,
I think is the key point. Because there will be more refugees than
there are habitable refuges--why else would Glenn Murell's ancestors
settle in Antarctica--it will largely be post-War international
relations which determine which refugees end up where.
That leads
me to believe it's likely Eastern Axis refugees from the Thirty Days'
War will be rare. The (first) Terran Federation (and its allies) will
prevent them from fleeing because they will want any attractive refuges
for themselves. At the same time, nations in the South will determine
who gets in based upon their own international relations. That leaves
America and its (first) Terran Federation allies with few obvious
choices while Britain and its allies will already enjoy stronger, more
favorable relationships in southern Africa and in Australia and New
Zealand.
I'm guessing that here is an origin of the _Fourth_ World War. . . .
> but given the West is able to go to Mars and
> Venus not long afterward
Ah,
but it's not "the West." We know the (first) Terran Federation sends
the first colony to Mars and can reasonably assume that they will enjoy
an advantage there. But we also know that Britain is _not_ a member of
the (first) Terran Federation (at least not in this period because there
is not yet a worldwide government on Terra). Britain may have been
_allied_ with the (first) Terran Federation in the Thirty Days' War but
it _won't_ be allied with the (first) Terran Federation in the post-War
scramble for habitable territory in the South and, perhaps, for colonies
on other planets in the Sol system.
I'm guessing that here is _another_ origin of the Fourth World War. . . .
> Therefore using Piper's own writing, and taking
> account of the world at that time I think it's very
> likely Australia would have continued accepting
> British and European refugees. This is probably
> why the London Times flees to Melbourne after
> the Fourth World War.
Yes,
it seems Beam tells us that, in subtle ways, though Australia (and New
Zealand) may have avoided the conflicts of the Northern Hemisphere--like
the other major nations in the South--there may have been a tilt toward
the British, and thus, _from_ the American-led (first) Terran
Federation, in post-Thirty Days' War period.
> So I'm not sure I'd agree with the premise that
> Australia would have been hostile to refugees.
I'm
not sure it makes a lot of sense to look at 1950s attitudes--or any
actual ones since--in any part of the South to try to assess this. The
horrors of the Thirty Days' War--and thus the scale of the refugee
challenges--will be unprecedented in Terro-human history. Thus, I think
that what will prevail will be a general reluctance to accept refugees
_across_ the South, tempered by the _realpolitik_ of the era.
Tchau,
David
--
"Britain
was a great nation, once; the last nation to join the Terran
Federation. . . ." - Lord "Dranigo" Dranigrastan (H. Beam Piper), "The
Keeper"
~
|
Tanith in Oz 09-25-2017
05:28 UT
|
You might find that Australia might be more accommodating to
refugees. When Piper was writing, Australia had a massive labor
shortage and so there was a scheme to bring in migrant laborers from
Europe. Migrants had their passages to Australia paid by the government
if those migrants were prepared to go out into the bush and help
develop infrastructure. The biggest example of this is the Snowy River
Hydroelectric scheme, where Polish, Italians, Greeks, British and others
worked to create Australia's biggest electric generation facility. However
having said that Australia did have the racist White Australia policy,
so certainly refugees from Asia, and even defeated "Nuclear" Axis powers
might have difficulty getting their refugees accepted. I agree getting
refugees around the planet might be hampered due to damaged ports, but
given the West is able to go to Mars and Venus not long afterward it's
clear the damage cannot have been too bad. Therefore using
Piper's own writing, and taking account of the world at that time I
think it's very likely Australia would have continued accepting British
and European refugees. This is probably why the London Times flees to
Melbourne after the Fourth World War. I contend that more Brits and
Scotts settled in Perth though (this has happened anyway), but it's
possible some could have gone on to Melbourne. I see Melbourne
would have had even more Greeks than it does (currently it's almost the
second largest population of Greeks in the world), Adelaide would have
seen more Italians and possibly some French and Germans (Germans were
already here, but our wineries might have enticed the French to come
here). Sydney might have had more Italians, but it is hard to say for
sure because our first city can swing wildly between conservatism and
progressive policies. But Brisbane is the enigma here. Brisvegas
(we like to call it that), and Queensland as a whole, has always been
ultra conservative. In the 1970-80s alone Sir Joh Bielke-Petersen ran
the state as his own personal fiefdom much like Huey Long did in
Louisiana. Joh had a gerrymander where the country had the majority of
seats and the cities had bizarre donut shaped electorates to ensure
conservative voters got to decide a lot of the seats. This made
Queensland very backward looking. For example stip clubs in Brisbane
were not allowed to go full nude unless falling fowl of the highly paid
but corrupt Vice squad. It was so laughable that Australian Playboy had
to publish a "Queensland" Edition where all nudity was barred. So its
hard to know what might have happened in Brisbane. When Piper was
writing the attitudes in this part of Australia weren't as bad as the
80s, but they were definitely there given this state perpetrated some of
the worst abuses to Aboriginal people, and had some of the least
progressive laws regarding women in the workplace. I'd be remiss
if I didn't mention Hobart, Canberra or Darwin. Ok so I mentioned them,
and sadly no one would really bother with either of these places. When
Piper was writing they were rather small. If anyone went to them then
they too would have been European. Canberra is especially even more the
sadder location, because as a world capital it is rather tiny,
especially during Piper's time. Refugees might have grown it somewhat,
but in reality most would go to our larger cities. So I'm not
sure I'd agree with the premise that Australia would have been hostile
to refugees. Some, such as Asians they would. But as the country was
small and needed people I'm not sure they would have turned many away. But hey I'm Aussie, so maybe I'm biased a bit. Lol. Regards Terry Edited 09-25-2017 07:00
|
David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-24-2017
03:32 UT
|
~
Dale Ridder wrote:
> I guess the problem that I see with all of the
> discussion of large numbers of refugees fleeing
> the Northern Hemisphere to the South basically
> lies in the distance to be travelled
Agreed.
I think Beam shows us two circumstances working against each other
here. The first, as you suggest, is that there aren't going to _be_
"large numbers." (This is why there are few remnants of American
political power in the Federation era.) The second is that there are
something like seventy or eighty years between the Thirty Days' War,
when the United States and, perhaps, other (first) Terran Federation
nations "suffer grievously," and the Fourth World War which destroys
civilization in the Northern Hemisphere.
In this period the
(first) Terran Federation launches a colonization effort on Mars and
someone--perhaps the British Commonwealth--colonizes Venus too. (Even
the Asteroid Belt and the Jovian moons are colonized in this period,
according to "The Future History.") If there are resources available
for interplanetary colonization presumably there are also resources
available for resettlement in the South and, perhaps, some recovery in
the North. (Of course, any recovery in the North will be destroyed by
the Fourth World War.)
There were something on the order of 200
million Americans when Beam was writing his Terro-human Future History
yarns. It seems unlikely that ten percent of that number will make
their way to Antarctica or other places in the South in the aftermath of
the Thirty Days' War. A similar share of evacuees seems likely for
other (first) Terran Federation nations and, if there is such a thing,
for British--or perhaps even Anglo-French--Commonwealth refugees. It
seems likely though that those who are evacuated to the South will be
the most privileged.
> In an atomic war, the major ports are going to
> be clobbered,
Perhaps,
though what little Beam tells us about the Thirty Days' War seems to
suggest that the Eastern Axis used a "counter-force"
strategy--pre-emptively attacking U.S. rocketports--rather than a
"counter-value" strategy which would attack sea ports and other
industrial or economic targets.
> Then you have the breakdown in delivery of
> petroleum from the producing areas to Europe,
> and the refineries being destroyed.
This
also presumes an Eastern Axis counter-value strategy, which isn't what
the little Beam tells us of the Thirty Days' War suggests. There will
obviously be industrial and economic damage but just twenty years after
the War the (first) Terran Federation launches the Martian colonization
effort. Whether that means the Thirty Days' War damage was not too
severe or that there was some spectacular recovery--or a bit of both--we
simply don't know.
> You have a long way to travel, which means food
> and water are needed to keep the refugees alive,
> presumably on pretty small craft. You do not
> improvise coal-burning ships on a moments
> notice, so it is going to be sail.
That's
remarkable imagery (though the circumstances are dire, of course).
There could be a fascinating yarn in this period. . . .
> I am not sure if Piper ever really sat down and
> considered the implications on blowing up the
> Northern Hemisphere on the advancement of
> space travel and technology in general.
Beam
seems to have envisioned a substantial interplanetary effort _before_
the final Atomic War--the Fourth World War (and First Interplanetary
War)--destroys civilization in the Northern Hemisphere.
> Also, how welcoming are Australia and New
> Zealand going to be to large numbers of
> refugees?
I
think this is key, for all of those nations which become "the new
civilization in South America and South Africa and Australia." In "The
Future History," Beam tells us that once "South Africa, Australia and
New Zealand, Brazil, the Argentine, etc." form the _second_ Terran
Federation there are "wars of colonial pacification and consolidation"
which result in them imposing a "System-wide pax." These do not sound
like the actions of folks who were particularly welcoming to refugees
from the North.
That's what leads me to suspect the Americans and
other (first) Terran Federation nation refugees end up in Antarctica
and, perhaps, in Portugal's colonial territories in southern Africa.
The British had some colonial territories in southern Africa too (when
Beam was writing) and may also enjoy some sort of "special relationship"
with Australia and New Zealand.
Tchau,
David
--
"I
was born in Antarctica, on Terra. The water's a little too cold to do
much swimming there. And I've spent most of my time since then in
central Argentine, in the pampas country." - Glenn Murell (H. Beam
Piper), ~Four-Day Planet~
~
|
Dale Ridder 09-23-2017
23:56 UT
|
I guess the problem that I see with all of the discussion of large
numbers of refugees fleeing the Northern Hemisphere to the South
basically lies in the distance to be travelled, especially say between
France and Madagascar and the Pacific Islands. In an atomic war, the
major ports are going to be clobbered, and Piper would have been aware
of this based on living through World War 2. He did have a very good
grasp of military technology. Just re-read "Cosmic Computer" and see
how many of his ideas are in use today. Then you have the breakdown in
delivery of petroleum from the producing areas to Europe, and the
refineries being destroyed. You have a long way to travel, which means
food and water are needed to keep the refugees alive, presumably on
pretty small craft. You do not improvise coal-burning ships on a
moments notice, so it is going to be sail. As it is hard to say what
happens to the Suez Canal, which is not really easy for sailing ships,
you are looking at voyage times in the months. Considering what is
going on in the Med currently with emigrants from Africa and Asia trying
to make Italy, the death toll is going to be quite high. I am not sure
if Piper ever really sat down and considered the implications on
blowing up the Northern Hemisphere on the advancement of space travel
and technology in general. Also, how welcoming are Australia and New
Zealand going to be to large numbers of refugees? For a very long time,
they had a "Whites Only" emigration policy, which did irritate the
Japanese a lot.
|
David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-23-2017
19:52 UT
|
~
Terry "Tanith in Oz" Glouftsis wrote:
> Ah yes Paris on Baldur. I'd further a different
> theory here. I think this does suggest French
> people are part of the Federation.
It's
possible but I think it may be a stretch to conclude this solely from
the name of Baldur's capital. If it were "Marseilles-on-Baldur" (or any
_other_ city in France), then perhaps, yes, but Paris is simply too
widely renown to make a specific French connection obvious.
Beam
gives us no other information to suggest that French people survived the
Atomic Wars in large numbers. Thus, even if the French manage to "team
up" with the British in the aftermath of the Thirty Days War--and
perhaps even join them, say, in colonizing Venus--it seems they will be
"minor partners" at best.
> But I think this was Piper giving us a hint that
> smaller ethnic groups might choose to go to
> the stars and set up places for themselves in
> order to start again.
Beam tells us this explicitly in "Naudsonce," though whether the French are one of these groups remains unknown.
> So though I think there is a compelling
> argument to suggest Japanese people did
> survive in Indonesia, they too could have gone
> to the stars. So a Shin Tokyo might not be on
> Terra then.
Well,
we know there are Japanese who survive the Thirty Days' War from
"Omnilingual." (We know there are French-Canadians too, but there don't
seem to be any French people on the ~Cyrano~ expedition.)
> Then I guess there's no reason to suggest
> that all of Terra Baldur Marduk's ships must
> be named after cities on Terra.
Thus the ~City of Konkrook~ in ~Fuzzies and Other People~.
> A City of Shin Tokyo, a City of Paris on Baldur
> and even others such as City of Neu Berlin, City
> of New Manhattan and even City of Naya Calcutta
> could exist because those cities might be out
> there somewhere, but not on Terra.
There
might be one or two but in general we don't seem to see this "New"
dynamic in Beam's Terro-human Future History yarns. We don't see it
even though he shows us civilization being destroyed several times. So,
perhaps there is a Shintokyo or a Naya Kolkata somewhere in Terra's
Southern Hemisphere but it seems unlikely there will be many such cities
on other planets.
> A human diaspora usually sees poor people,
> refugees and those wanting to start again to
> take the chance on a new location.
Sure,
but Beam tells us in "Naudsonce" that the planets these folks end up on
aren't very habitable. Barring the occasional accidental discovery of
some key resource--as on Nifflheim--that suggests these folks will
_continue_ to remain on the margins of civilization throughout the
(second) Federation era.
> Melbourne has a Greek Quarter. The town of
> Griffiths in NSW has largely been built by the
> Italians. In Adelaide the suburb of Kilkenny has
> become a little Vietnam and Haymarket in Sydney
> today has more Vietnamese than anywhere else
> in Australia.
Because
there was a similar diaspora of Vietnamese to North America I might
have guessed this about Australia but, from a lifetime here in North
America, I had no idea there were Greek or Italian communities in
Australia. This is an important point. I doubt Royal Caribbean or
Moller-Maersk have named any of their ships--or Lufthansa or KLM any of
their aircraft--"City of Griffiths." Similarly, it seems unlikely that
Terra-Baldur-Marduk (or any other Federation era spaceline) will be
naming their ships for the main city of an "irreconcilable
minority-group" on some Federation planet.
Tchau,
David
--
"As
for the other five, one had been an all-out hell-planet, and the rest
had been the sort that get colonized by irreconcilable minority-groups
who want to get away from everybody else. The Colonial Office wouldn't
even consider any of them." - Mark Howell (H. Beam Piper), "Naudsonce"
~
|
Tanith in Oz 09-23-2017
05:31 UT
|
Ah yes Paris on Baldur. I'd further a different theory here. I think
this does suggest French people are part of the Federation. Certainly
there's not a large group of them though, otherwise Piper would have
suggested it. But I think this was Piper giving us a hint that smaller
ethnic groups might choose to go to the stars and set up places for
themselves in order to start again. This would be in a manner
consistent with the Mormons going out into the frontier beyond the then
current borders of the US to get away from conditions and a government
that they found restrictive.
I could see that the French, who are
a proud people, might see a lack of influence in the Federation as a
justification to go elsewhere and run things for themselves. In this
regard then perhaps a New Paris on Earth didn't happen, because that New
Paris is actually Paris on Baldur.
So if that makes sense then
it might be possible to say that other colonial settlements could have
followed this pattern. So though I think there is a compelling argument
to suggest Japanese people did survive in Indonesia, they too could
have gone to the stars. So a Shin Tokyo might not be on Terra then.
Then
I guess there's no reason to suggest that all of Terra Baldur Marduk's
ships must be named after cities on Terra. A City of Shin Tokyo, a City
of Paris on Baldur and even others such as City of Neu Berlin, City of
New Manhattan and even City of Naya Calcutta could exist because those
cities might be out there somewhere, but not on Terra.
To me
this does make some sense. A human diaspora usually sees poor people,
refugees and those wanting to start again to take the chance on a new
location. Here in Australia we had two large waves of diaspora, the
Italians and Greeks after World War Two and then the Vietnamese after
the Vietnam War. Technically a third one is now happening with the
Sudanese, but so far we are yet to truly see what that will bring (but
Australian Rules Football has seen the emergence of a Sudanese player).
But
those two bigger waves here in Australia have caused some interesting
ripples. Melbourne has a Greek Quarter. The town of Griffiths in NSW
has largely been built by the Italians. In Adelaide the suburb of
Kilkenny has become a little Vietnam and Haymarket in Sydney today has
more Vietnamese than anywhere else in Australia.
This is
nothing new but it is interesting. During the Gold Rushes of the 19th
Century before there was a nation called Australia the Colony of
Victoria had an influx of Chinese who literally founded and build the
city of Ararat. It seems that migrants do build new communities
wherever they go and they tend to either blend in to the new locale or
rise to dominate it. So I could see that pattern happening again in the
years of the Federation with the extra caveat that this might also lead
to these people naming the cities they create. In some instances they
might go to places and become a large group in the colony, but not name
their settlement, but in other instances naming rights would fall to
them.
Food for thought.
Regards
Terry
|
David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-20-2017
15:00 UT
|
~
Terry "Tanith in Oz" Glouftsis wrote:
> New Paris in Madagascar?
Well,
I don't know about a "Nouveau Paris." We see "Paris-on-Baldur" at a
few points in Terro-human Future History yarns but it's not clear this
is an effort to make a distinction with a corresponding
"Paris-on-Terra"--or a "Nouveau Paris-sur-La-Terre"--or simply an
allusion to the historical "Paris that was." (What little detail we get
about Baldur--including the hint of its name--suggests it's an
especially beautiful planet and that concept alone may have been what
led to the naming of its capital city, especially by non-French
speakers.)
> I'd used South America thinking about Paula
> Quinton's statements, but certainly if France
> was going to escape somewhere then certainly
> French colonies make sense.
If
there is a post-Thirty Days' War exodus from France it will likely be
more substantial than those few former Nazi collaborators who fled to
South America after the Second World War (to become Quinton's
ancestors).
> I'd previously postulated French Polynesia for
> this, but Madagascar is certainly just as viable
> (as is Mauritius and Reunion).
These
French-controlled islands were part of the Madagascar "province" under
the French Union but they're a much longer haul for refugees fleeing
France. I imagine the Indian Ocean and Pacific Islands are going to see
many more refugees from southern and eastern Asia (and maybe western
North America in the Pacific) regardless of their political
circumstances at the end of the Thirty Days' War.
The interesting
thing is that "Madagascar" under the French Union _also_ included the
French Antarctic claim in Adelie Land. So it may be, especially if
France does end up in the (first) Terran Federation, that there are
French in Antarctica too. On the other hand, I suspect the more likely
course is that France's Dumont d'Urville station is taken over by the
Americans along with the British stations.
> So it's clear they were already there. If they
> were joined by some other Japanese refugees
> there certainly would be a large number of them
> post the atomic holocaust.
Seems like a likely possibility, regardless of Indonesia's relationship to the (first) Terran Federation.
Tchau,
David
--
"I
was born in Antarctica, on Terra. The water's a little too cold to do
much swimming there. And I've spent most of my time since then in
central Argentine, in the pampas country." - Glenn Murell (H. Beam
Piper), ~Four-Day Planet~
~
|
Tanith in Oz 09-18-2017
04:36 UT
|
New Paris in Madagascar? Sure that seems ok to me, perhaps that's a
bit better than South America. I'd used South America thinking about
Paula Quinton's statements, but certainly if France was going to escape
somewhere then certainly French colonies make sense. I'd previously
postulated French Polynesia for this, but Madagascar is certainly just
as viable (as is Mauritius and Reunion). In regards to the
Japanese in Sulawesi, they were there from before World War Two
according to my research. Beginning in the late 1920s, Okinawan
fishermen began to settle in north Sulawesi. There was a Japanese
primary school at Manado, which by 1939 had 18 students. After the end
of the 1942-1945 Japanese occupation of Indonesia, roughly 3,000
Imperial Japanese Army soldiers chose to remain in Indonesia and fight
alongside local people against the Dutch colonists in the Indonesian
National Revolution. They served with distinction and helped to soothe
the bad relations caused by the occupation. Indonesia allowed them to
stay and settle in the country. Today there's about 11 thousand
"Nikkei Indonesians" in the entire country (not just Sulawesi). So it's
clear they were already there. If they were joined by some other
Japanese refugees, both from Japan and other parts of Indonesia there
certainly would be a large number of them post the atomic holocaust.
Therefore migrating to the south side of the island to set up a new
city, or forming a large enclave in an existing city (which may or may
not grow to one day rename the city) would make sense to me. Regards Terry Edited 09-18-2017 04:48
|
David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-18-2017
03:30 UT
|
~
Terry "Tanith in Oz" Glouftsis wrote:
> If the influx of refugees into a city was great
> enough there's the possibility the sheer weight
> of numbers could lead to a name change
If
Indonesia is aligned with the (first) Terran Federation--which seems
unlikely to me--then it might accept refugees from Japan (and perhaps
also South Korea and Nationalist China) while maintaining political
control. That would tend to rule out a renaming. On the other hand, if
Indonesia _isn't_ aligned with the Terran Federation then perhaps the
arrival of refugees from Federation member nations in eastern Asia isn't
something Indonesia has much say in. A renaming in that case would be a
distinct possibility.
> New Paris could exist in South America, maybe
> somewhere in Uruguay.
We
have no more insight into France's fate in the Atomic Wars than we have
into Indonesia's. France seems an unlikely (first) Terran Federation
member but we simply don't know. That anti-American sentiment might
lead to France aligning with Britain when it passes on the (first)
Terran Federation but that's also something we simply don't know.
I
would imagine any French Thirty Days' War refugees are more likely to
end up in Madagascar than in South America. Madagascar was in a
complicated process of gaining its independence from France at the time
Beam was writing--even briefly being a formal part of France under the
French Union early in that period--so it might make sense that Beam
would see it as a likely Southern refuge for the French.
> Shin Tokyo is a little harder to place, but I'd
> place them in Sulawesi if I had to.
>
> Sulawesi has a large expatriate Japanese
> community of Okinawans and other Japanese.
Are these folks who came during the Japanese occupation or have they arrived more recently?
> This way a Shin Tokyo could arise if not in
> Ujung Pandang, then adjacent to it.
Wasn't this where Japanese naval forces were based during the occupation? Seems like a possible candidate.
Tchau,
David
--
"I
was trying to show the results of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire
after the First World War, and the partition of the Middle East into a
loose collection of Arab states, and the passing of British and other
European spheres of influence following the Second." - Edward Chalmers
(H. Beam Piper), "The Edge of the Knife"
~
|
Tanith in Oz 09-18-2017
02:55 UT
|
Yes I could certainly see that happening. I had resisted doing it but
certainly there would be a chance for some cities becoming something
else.
If the influx of refugees into a city was great enough
there's the possibility the sheer weight of numbers could lead to a name
change (which isn't absurd given places like Lourneco Marques and
Salisbury were renamed after independence, so it's not like city names
remain enshrined in concrete.)
The idea of a Shin Tokyo or even a
New Paris might be something worth considering. New Paris could exist
in South America, maybe somewhere in Uruguay. Shin Tokyo is a little
harder to place, but I'd place them in Sulawesi if I had to.
Sulawesi
has a large expatriate Japanese community of Okinawans and other
Japanese. I could envision that in the nuclear horrors this community
might migtrate to the south of the island. Though I'm loathe to place
cities above the 7th Parallel South(due to fallout) places like Ujung
Pandang or Tanete could have survived if the idea of natural mountains
shielding areas from fallout remains plausible.
This way a Shin
Tokyo could arise if not in Ujung Pandang, then adjacent to it. And
given Japanese experience with Hiroshima and Nagasaki they might be more
prepared to take the risk to stay on Sulawesi and make a go of it
anyway.
Regards
Terry
|
David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-18-2017
01:39 UT
|
~
Terry "Tanith in Oz" Glouftsis wrote:
> So if there are habitable places in the archipelago
> it would be largely southern Java, Bali, West Irian
> and Timor.
>
[snip]
>
> That's why when I created the list of TBM ships
> (more for fun than anything else) I created names
> such as City of Denpasar, City of Kupang and City
> of Dili.
I
wonder, depending upon the relationship of Indonesia to the (first)
Terran Federation, if perhaps some place like Depasar or Kupang or
Sorong ends up becomming "Shin-Tokyo." ~City of Shintokyo~ would be a
pretty cool ship name.
Tchau,
David
--
"It's all
pretty hush-hush, but this term Terran Federation is a tentative name
for a proposed organization to take the place of the U.N. if that
organization breaks up." - Major Cutler (H. Beam Piper), "The Edge of
the Knife"
~
|
Tanith in Oz 09-17-2017
07:15 UT
|
Yes I can see how Piper might have come to the conclusion that
equatorial regions might have fallout. However having said that some
equatorial regions would fair better, especially islands. Java
for example is mountainous and it's possible to say that though the
Northern side of the island might have fallout, the southern side might
be protected. The same might be possible for southern Borneo and
Southern Sumatra, but large parts wouldn't be. From this I'd then
suggest the southern part of the Indonesian chain would fair somewhat
better than places such as Sulawesi, Borneo and Sumatra. So if there
are habitable places in the archipelago it would be largely southern
Java, Bali, West Irian, Flores and Timor. It's harder to say
what other places in the equatorial regions might be like, but certainly
the Andes would provide some protection to the South American
countries, but African countries would have a harder time of it,
especially the flatter savannah ones. That's why when I created
the list of TBM ships (more for fun than anything else) I created names
such as City of Denpasar, City of Koepang and City of Dili. I even
think Port Moresby in Papua New Guinea might fair ok too (and don't
forget Australia controlled the country under UN mandate until 1975, so a
City of Port Moresby might exist). Regards Terry Edited 09-17-2017 16:01
|
David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-16-2017
18:14 UT
|
~
Terry "Tanith in Oz" Glouftsis wrote:
> Certainly the concept of "Governor Generals" are
> shared between Australia and New Zealand, so
> this can be argued having come from either.
Those
"Resident Ministers" and "Resident Agents" (and even a "Minister
General") who often reside in "Government House" or "Company House" are
artifacts of the British Commonwealth which, putting aside the final
fate of Britain itself, most likely came into the (second) Federation
era via Australia, New Zealand, the former Commonwealth territories in
southern Africa, and perhaps even South Africa.
The interesting
thing is that Beam clearly used these sorts of concepts for the (second)
Terran Federation rather than corresponding American terms. He seemed
to be indicating that America did not play a major role in the formal
governance of the (second) Terran Federation. That suggests some things
not only about the ultimate fate of America in North America but also
about the role of any American redoubt in Antarctica--or of any American
colonies on another planet like Mars.
> It has been pointed out that Piper only wrote
> what he knew or could easily access. This is
> why Indonesia is probably not used by Piper.
What's
interesting is that Beam never mentions any nations which sit astride
the equator--other than Brazil. No Kenya or Congo, no Colombia or
Ecuador, no Indonesia. Most of Brazil, especially the more
densely-populated regions, is well south of the equator. Perhaps Beam
assumed that the equatorial nations would still suffer a fair amount of
fallout damage from the destruction of the Northern Hemisphere.
> But I guess the same goes for New Zealand too
> when it comes to the Maoris.
>
> Given that the treaty of Waitangi codified native
> practices in NZ law it is interesting Piper never
> used this a launch pad for a story or had it
> influence Federation law.
New
Zealand isn't Beam's only "omission" here. We don't hear anything
about other Southern nations like Bolivia, Chile, Paraguay and Peru or
Botswana (Bechuanaland), Madagascar, Malawi (Nyasaland), Zambia
(northern Rhodesia) or Zimbabwe (southern Rhodesia).
> I guess given Piper was so active in naming
> Australian, South African and South American
> locations it interests me that I haven't been able
> to find a concrete New Zealand one.
I
think Dale's point, that Beam was writing fiction he wanted to sell
rather that simply trying to craft a comprehensive future history,
accounts for these "shortcomings." Beam had a conception of the setting
he was writing in and then used it to illustrate points required for
dramatic ends in his fiction, not to outline that setting in detail.
> I guess it's not really that significant but its
> interesting to have no idea of what people from
> Auckland or Wellington are like, or what from the
> Northern hemisphere might have gone there.
I'm
guessing that if you could have a conversation with Beam's discarnate
self, he'd tell you that New Zealand's experience was pretty much like
Australia's, only a bit less significant, just as, say, Chile's or
Bolivia's experience was like Argentina's, only a bit less significant. .
. .
> Like how Melbourne has the Times,
Here's one of
Beam's clues about Britain's ultimate fate. This is what leads me to
wonder if the British monarchy--and perhaps even the British "government
in exile" in the aftermath of the Fourth World War--ends up in
Melbourne. . . .
Tchau,
David
--
"Some of the old
papers on Terra, like . . . the ~Melbourne Times~, which used to be the
~London Times~ when there was still a London. . . ." - Walt Boyd (H.
Beam Piper), ~Four-Day Planet~
~
|
Tanith in Oz 09-16-2017
16:10 UT
|
Yes you are right that is in his Future History notes, a good catch
there that I overlooked. But perhaps I should have been more clear, I
meant we really do not see much in the way of Kiwi culture appearing or
influencing the Federation.
Certainly the concept of "Governor
Generals" are shared between Australia and New Zealand, so this can be
argued having come from either. It has been pointed out that Piper only
wrote what he knew or could easily access. This is why Indonesia is
probably not used by Piper. But I guess the same goes for New Zealand
too when it comes to the Maoris.
Given that the treaty of
Waitangi codified native practices in NZ law it is interesting Piper
never used this a launch pad for a story or had it influence Federation
law. I've always thought the Native Courts mentioned were more of a
South African or Australian idea made manifest by Piper (though it is
also likely he was using Native American Indian experience too).
I
guess given Piper was so active in naming Australian, South African and
South American locations it interests me that I haven't been able to
find a concrete New Zealand one. I guess it's not really that
significant but its interesting to have no idea of what people from
Auckland or Wellington are like, or what from the Northern hemisphere
might have gone there. Like how Melbourne has the Times, and Adelaide
has become known for a strong Sociography department, concurrently we
know practically nothing about NZ.
I know the texts are limited
but I see an opportunity there to make some mention. Perhaps Auckland
became the new Hollywood after the Fourth World War? Or the University
of Wellington had a large portion of Oxford escape to it? Things like
that I guess.
Regards
Terry
|
David Sooby 09-16-2017
01:59 UT
|
Terry "Tanith in Oz" said:
> Then there's New Zealand. Though their population was
> smaller during Piper's time, this nation would make an
> excellent place for refugees to escape to...
But New Zealand was specifically mentioned in Piper's "The Future History". See the excerpt I cite below.
> But even wider than this is the pacific islands. Though
> mega cities would never grow on modestly small volcanic
> islands, the fact remains that many islands in this part of
> the world are isolated and would have survived both
> atomic wars. Again I find it unusual we hear nothing
> from these places too.
Just
because there were likely people surviving on those islands, doesn't
mean they contributed in any important way to the rise of the
Federation. WW IV was described as the "First Interplanetary War". In
Piper's "The Future History" notes, this is followed by:
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Second Terran Federation organized by South Africa[,]
Australia & New Zealand, Brazil, the Argentine etc. Wars of
colonial pacification and consolidation
~~~~~~~~~~~~
It
seems pretty straightforward -- in fact, I thought it was obvious
before the question was raised in this discussion -- that the Earth
largely fell into barbarism, with only a few places such as Australia,
South Africa, and Brazil retaining industrial civilization. What happens
during a Dark Ages, the most important thing *causing* a "Dark Ages",
is that communication between regions is cut off. Each region is left on
its own, without any trade or ideas coming from far lands.
Technologies, expertise in various professions and areas of study, and
ideas... all get lost. The survivors are left with far less; their
children, without schooling and unable to read, know the Golden Days of
yore only as oral stories and legends, and to the grandchildren they are
only myths. Some large regions, such as Australia and Brazil, were able
to hang onto enough to retain a literate population, and an
industrialized economy. Smaller regions, and isolated islands, were not.
Sure,
the various Pacific and Indonesian islands probably had survivors
living on them; but living at a subsistence level. At best these would
be agricultural feudal States, at worst they would be living as
hunter-gatherers, with the only difference between them and stone-age
primitives being the relics of the dead past that they could scavenge.
Talk about Cargo Cult civilizations!
These subsistence level
civilizations, and their inhabitants, are not going to contribute in any
important way to the formation of the Second Terran Federation. In
fact, many or most of these barbarous regions are going to be the target
of the "Wars of colonial pacification and consolidation" that Piper
mentions.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clear ether!
David "Lensman" Sooby
|
David Sooby 09-16-2017
01:59 UT
|
David Johnson said:
> "The Return" isn't a Terro-human Future History yarn and
> so the war there may have been less severe than the > Atomic Wars.
That
was my assumption when reading "The Return". The devastation was
obviously much less than what happened in World War IV, which Piper
described as "Complete devastation of Northern Hemisphere of Terra",
apparently meaning more or less complete depopulation.
Contrariwise,
as I recall in "The Return", there are many regions or at least
"pockets" in which people are living, but nearly all of them have fallen
into barbarism. The story is about one of the very, very few which have
retained an industrialized civilization contacting another.
In
particular, there only seems to have been one war and though it seems
to have been _more_ severe than the Thirty Days' War it may have been
_less_ severe than the Fourth World War (which Beam describes as the
"First Interplanetary War" in "The Future History").
> I've always assumed that much of the destruction was
> due to fallout rather than blast damage.
Right.
Piper clearly did not believe in the sort of scenario portrayed in ON
THE BEACH, with the ecosystem of the entire Earth doomed from deadly
clouds of radiation eventually covering the entire globe; Piper believed
humans could resist radiation better than that, or at least that there
would be enough survivors resistant to radiation that their offspring
would be fairly immune to the effects of fallout. However, it's
reasonable to assume that the Northern Hemisphere was more or less
completely depopulated during or after WW IV due to radioactive fallout.
Any remaining survivors would have fallen into barbarism, cut off from
contact with anyone else and not having a sufficient population base to
maintain an industrialized economy.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clear ether!
David "Lensman" Sooby
|
Tanith in Oz 09-14-2017
06:19 UT
|
Yes that's a good point. The Mars mission does point to the "allies" coming out of the 30 Day War in a much better position.
Certainly after the fourth though they wouldn't.
But
I could envision an occupation of Russia and China, from which some
Generals and members of each Politburo might be able to escape to
Indonesia (in secret).
Some interesting story ideas there...
Regards,
Terry
|
David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-13-2017
14:41 UT
|
~
Terry "Tanith in Oz" Glouftsis wrote:
> But I'm not sure if it's a question of letting
> it happen. In the chaos following the
> atomic horror most people would only
> be interested in saving their own skins.
It
won't be _that_ chaotic, at least not for the victors. In the
aftermath of the Thirty Days' War circumstances will prevail in which
the occupation and control of Eastern Axis nations is likely to be every
bit as extensive (though perhaps more brutal) as was Allied occupation
of Germany and Japan after the Second World War. . . .
> Certainly much of Russia and China would
> have been devastated, but there would be
> survivors. True the majority would likely
> end up like the North Americans, poor,
> destitute and reverted.
North
Americans are a bit better off than that, at least early in the Atomic
Wars. Two decades after the Thirty Days' War the (first) Terran
Federation launches an expedition to Mars (with a more extensive
colonizing expedition on its way). Sometime in this period, somebody
does something similar on Venus. Within seventy-some years--about as
long as the time that has passed since the end of World War Two--those
colonies on Mars and Venus are engaged in an "interplanetary war" with
Terra. (Of course, all bets are off in North America after that Fourth
World War.)
> I agree it might be a stretch but given the
> silence regarding Indonesia from Piper, I
> could see it happening here on a very small
> scale. Large numbers are of course impossible,
> but certainly a General, his staff and family
> could have. Or some minor members of the
> politburo could have escaped there in secret
> with some supporters and family.
Yep. Definitely a possibility.
Cheers,
David
--
"You
either went on to the inevitable catastrophe, or you realized, in time,
that nuclear armament and nationalism cannot exist together on the same
planet, and it is easier to banish a habit of thought than a piece of
knowledge." - H. Beam Piper, ~Uller Uprising~
~
|
Tanith in Oz 09-13-2017
03:46 UT
|
I can understand that position. But I'm not sure if it's a question of
letting it happen. In the chaos following the atomic horror most people
would only be interested in saving their own skins.
Certainly
much of Russia and China would have been devastated, but there would be
survivors. True the majority would likely end up like the North
Americans, poor, destitute and reverted. But these would be the ones who
stayed. Some level of Russian and Chinese leadership could have
survived, if not in their bunkers, then by leaving the country
afterwards.
I'm not saying it would be a large group, but I
could envision a country giving them sanctuary in a similar way to what
Argentina did for the Nazis. A place like Indonesia would be ideal as
the population is large and small groups of escapees could easily hide
out there in the countryside, perhaps in secret.
I would point
out that though many Nazis were rumoured to be in Argentina, it actually
took decades to confirm some of them (but yes a few were easily located
early on). But Argentina was never sanctioned for giving Nazis aid,
and so I could see how that could happen again after the 30 Days War.
I
agree it might be a stretch but given the silence regarding Indonesia
from Piper, I could see it happening here on a very small scale. Large
numbers are of course impossible, but certainly a General, his staff and
family could have. Or some minor members of the politburo could have
escaped there in secret with some supporters and family.
Indonesia
is an odd country in our time because it claimed to be neutral but a
lot of their foreign positions did tend to lean towards the Soviet
Union. So I could see how small groups of Soviets could escape here.
This then could also include some Chinese too, but I actually think it's
more likely the Russians could have pulled this off.
Regards,
Terry
|
David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-13-2017
01:29 UT
|
~ Terry "Tanith in Oz" Glouftsis wrote: > But it might make a good place for the > defeated enemies to go, because they have > to go somewhere I'm
not so sure. At a time when the victorious Thirty Days' War "Allies"
are resettling their own displaced peoples in places like Antarctica I
don't imagine they allow people in the former Eastern Axis nations to go
_anywhere_ in large numbers. > (well at least some of their leaderships > anyway). Sure, as Beam's examples of Von Schilchten and Quinton make clear, some folks will always escape. > I take it it on face value that Paula actually > means her ancestor came from the home > islands. So if we can accept that then > perhaps we can extend the umbrella a > little on who may have survived and where. The
key isn't so much Quinton as it is Sachiko Koremitsu. Japan, as we
would expect, seems to be a (first) Terran Federation member. So
Japanese will get resettled along with other (first) Terran Federation
folks, in Antarctica and in Federation member territories in southern
Africa. > If this works then it could be suggested > that a Russian, or a Chinese, or even an > Indian Character grew up in Djakarta or > in Bali. There wouldn't be many of them > of course. There
is always the opportunity for some people. We do see a few
Chinese--descendants of Nationalist Chinese (first) Terran Federation
folks, perhaps, who were resettled in the South--and Indians--perhaps
descendants of people from the post-Thirty Days' War, (British?))
occupation who went on to resettle in Australia or New Zealand or the
Commonwealth nations in southern Africa--in later Terro-human Future
History yarns. But by not having very many descendants of Eastern Axis
nations in his later yarns, I think Beam was suggesting what happened to
most of those peoples in the Atomic Wars: the Thirty Days' War Allies
prohibited them from resettling in the South and then the Fourth World
War came along and killed most of them (along with most of everyone else
in the North). > Indonesia might be a way to explain it. As
you suggest, Indonesia is an interesting unknown, but if it gets large
numbers of Northern refugees I don't think they come from former Eastern
Axis nations. Cheers, David -- "Good things in the long run are often tough while they're happening." - Otto Harkaman (H. Beam Piper), ~Space Viking~ ~ Edited 09-13-2017 14:37
|
David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-12-2017
03:16 UT
|
~
Dale Ridder wrote:
> Antarctica is not going to change a lot under the
> conditions posed by Piper.
Yep. It will continue to be an inhospitable place--though still more attractive than, say, Mercury Twilight Zone. ;)
I think this was mostly Beam trying to signal how bad things got in the Northern Hemisphere during the Atomic Wars.
> I have a hard time with Piper's assumption that
> the Northern Hemisphere would be so totally
> destroyed in a nuclear war. In The Return, you
> have a somewhat flourishing group in Arizona
> making contact with a group in Pennsylvania,
> also still surviving and apparently flourishing.
> That does not sound like nuclear devastation to
> me.
"The
Return" isn't a Terro-human Future History yarn and so the war there
may have been less severe than the Atomic Wars. In particular, there
only seems to have been one war and though it seems to have been _more_
severe than the Thirty Days' War it may have been _less_ severe than the
Fourth World War (which Beam describes as the "First Interplanetary
War" in "The Future History").
> Mexico and the Caribbean would not be hit that
> hard, if at all, along with most of Canada. How
> hard is Hawaii going to be hit aside from Pearl
> Harbor? The same holds true for the Philippines
> and Japan, and also China. What happens with
> the Scandinavian countries?
I've
always assumed that much of the destruction was due to fallout rather
than blast damage. That said, who knows where the rocket launchers of
Operation Triple Cross were located? If some of them were located at
(first) Terran Federation sites outside the United States there may have
been blast damage at all sorts of locations beyond the continental U.S.
(and whatever parts of the the Eastern Axis the United States was
shooting at).
And then there is whatever happened in the Fourth
World War. When Venusian or Martian partisans are dropping
planet-busters from orbit who knows how substantial the blast damage
ends up being. . . .
> Another thing working against the idea of nuclear
> annihilation of the Northern Hemisphere is the
> use in Uller Uprising of the records of the Manhattan
> Project. Those are held by the National Archives in
> Washington, D. C., clearly the ground zero of a fair
> number of bombs, along with Los Alamos Laboratory.
> Yet the records were being used in Uller Uprising.
The
Manhattan Project records are described specifically as coming from the
University of Montevideo library (which is apparently where the bomb
materials brought to South America by Lanningham were stored as well).
Lanningham fled to South America shortly after the Fourth World War
(from Antarctica, I assume, but we simply don't know--though presumablly
it must be someplace not in the Northern Hemisphere at that point)
during a period of "minor wars" which followed the main war. The point
is we don't know what happened in the eighty or so years between the
Thirty Days' War and the Fourth World War. If the United States moved
the government in this period--again, perhaps to Antarctica (from which
Lanningham fled, subsequently)--it's likely they moved the Archives too.
> One more thing to remember. He was writing to
> sell material, not to present a history of the Future.
Yep.
David
--
"Why
Walt Disney bought the movie rights to ['Rebel Raider'], I've never
figured out. Will Colonel Mosby be played by Mickey Mouse, and General
Phil Sheridan by Donald Duck? It's baffling. However, I was glad to
get the check." -- H. Beam Piper, The Pennsy interview, 1953
~
|
Tanith in Oz 09-12-2017
03:14 UT
|
Ok. Yes I can see where you're going there. Then perhaps it might
be fair to suggest that if Africa is largely the place of choice for
many Northern refugees (but of course not exclusively) then perhaps
something else was going on in Indonesia. Just because Piper
never mentions it, I can't believe all the Chinese, the Indians and the
Russians perished. If Americans could flee to Antartica, then surely
there had to be some from survivors from these other nations too (given
that both China and India are so populous). Perhaps Indonesia
became their safe haven. I'm not suggesting that this then caused the
subwar, but it certainly could be considered as a factor. But even if
that doesn't work I'd have no problems with suggesting a place Piper
didn't write about is where Russians, Indians and the Chinese actually
went to, and that's why we hear nothing about them. I can also
accept that any Muslim survivors might then go to Africa when you
consider that they would rather not go to a country where their enemies
went to (at least in the early years of course). Even though Indonesia
has a large Muslim population (which might be attractive to some
Muslims) I am forced to agree that it's out of the way for most people
from North America, Europe and the Middle East to flee to. But it might
make a good place for the defeated enemies to go, because they have to
go somewhere (well at least some of their leaderships anyway). This
could work, but of course it doesn't account for why we don't hear
about Russians, Chinese or Indians later on in the Federation. But the
fact that Paula Quinton claims Japanese heritage in Uller Uprsing does
make me think there may have been more Northern hemisphere survivors
than we think. Though I understand Japanese people lived in other
places, I take it it on face value that Paula actually means her
ancestor came from the home islands. So if we can accept that then
perhaps we can extend the umbrella a little on who else may have
survived and where. If this works then it could be suggested that
a Russian, or a Chinese, or even an Indian Character grew up in
Djakarta or in Bali. There wouldn't be many of them of course. And
then there is the notion of White Russians who fled Soviet Russia
anyway. They'd exist somewhere. So this then convinces me we can't say
that no Russians exist. And the sheer numbers of Indians and Chinese
also makes me think some would have to have escaped somewhere. Indonesia might be a way to explain it. Regards, Terry Edited 09-12-2017 03:56
|
David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-12-2017
01:54 UT
|
~
Terry "Tanith in Oz" Glouftsis wrote:
> But having said that by the time of the Empire
> two areas on Terra are mentioned in The
> Keeper, the "cities of Awster and fabulous
> Antark".
This
is during the _fifth_ Galactic Empire, thousands of years into the
future of the first Empire yarns "A Slave is a Slave" and "Ministry of
Disturbance."
> So clearly there must be some cities of note in
> the South polar region, even during the
> Federation for these two "cities" to be
> mentioned thousands of years later, especially
> for the second to be "fabulous".
I'm
not convinced that follows. Antark--obviously Antarctica, yes--is
"fabulous" to Raud, a provincial woodsman in a remote region. For me,
this tells us nothing about these places in eras prior to the fifth
Empire era in which Raud is living (and perhaps even nothing beyond what
someone who lived in Raud's locale might think).
> True these may be nothing more than echoes,
> but it is interesting Piper chose to use these
> and I have always thought he might have had
> something in mind.
I've always thought this was simply Beam signalling to readers that the yarn was taking place on Earth.
> Perhaps these were the last habitable places due
> to glaciation every where else, but this is a little
> vague and doesn't explain why Antarctica would
> no longer be cold, or would be considered habitable.
Perhaps
Beam's idea was that the glaciation originated in the Northern
Hemisphere, leaving regions closer to the Southern Pole more habitable.
> So it's hard to really say what kind of influence the
> Antarcticans may have ever had,
I'm
not sure it's so difficult. Beam tells us that after the Atomic Wars
civilization moved to the Southern Hemisphere and also gave us several
bits--the ships named for cities, the make-up of Lingua Terra, various
character names--which clarify that to mean the more populous, temperate
regions of the Southern Hemisphere.
On the other hand, he drops
Murell in Antarctica to remind us what a mess the Atomic Wars made of
Terra but then never refers to it again (until "The Keeper"). To me,
that suggests the Antarctic settlements never really amount to much in
the Federation era.
> Even during Piper's time the Dutch East Indies
> had broken away from Dutch rule and had
> become Indonesia. Back then they were the most
> populous Muslim nation on Terra, as they are
> today. Therefore I find it odd we hear nothing
> from them.
Agreed.
We can't conclude Beam was unfamiliar with Indonesia because he
describes a "Subwar" conflict there in the Hartley yarn "The
Mercenaries." It could be though that Beam didn't know much about
Indonesia (like people's names or that it was a Muslim nation).
> It's to this nation that I think some Muslim
> refugees might go, as well as Mocambique in
> Africa.
I
think, in general, that emigration patterns in the period between the
Thirty Days' War and the Fourth World War will tend to follow
_geopolitical_ relationships at the time. Caliphate Arabs and Iranians
and Turks and Pakistanis will end up in Portugal's African holdings
because they share an alliance relationship in the (first) Terran
Federation. It's much less clear what Indonesia's relationship might be
to the Terran Federation or to the Eastern Axis or to the Commonwealth
(except to say that it's not _obviously_ aligned with any of those
groups).
> But again the Federation seems not to have
> any inclusion from them. This is weird.
Not
so weird when we look at the geopolitics. Lots of folks at the time
Beam was writing tended to look at the world in a pretty binary manner.
Indonesia had clearly thrown off its European colonial occupiers but it
hadn't thrown in with the Commies (though Beam does refer to Indonesia
as a Soviet bloc nation in the non-Terro-human Future History yarn
"Hunter Patrol"). That put Indonesia in a somewhat unusual place at the
time. Combine that with the assumption that Beam wasn't overly
familiar with Indonesia and it makes sense that he didn't talk about it
much. He had other, easier ways to communicate what he needed to
communicate to his readers for his dramatic purposes.
> But if we assume that the
> island chains were completely destroyed in the
> 4th World War, then we begin to open the door
> on a nuclear poisoned Northern Australia.
> This I don't believe Piper intended.
Agreed.
> I guess he looked at
> the most populous places on the map and went
> with them and wasn't that concerned with other
> places.
I think you've answered your own question here. ;)
Cheers,
David
--
"Why
Walt Disney bought the movie rights to ['Rebel Raider'], I've never
figured out. Will Colonel Mosby be played by Mickey Mouse, and General
Phil Sheridan by Donald Duck? It's baffling. However, I was glad to
get the check." -- H. Beam Piper, The Pennsy interview, 1953
~
|
Dale Ridder 09-11-2017
19:38 UT
|
Just a couple of things to think about when considering large
settlements in Antarctica. I spent my Army time in Alaska, including
winter field exercises in the middle of the state, southeast of
Fairbanks. As a result, I have been out in minus 62 below Fahrenheit
straight cold, I would rather not think about the wind chill. We had a
week of minus 40 below, and we were in tents. We had to deal with the
cold and the 22 hours or so of darkness, along with the way metal and
materials behave when it is that cold. Antarctica is going to be like
that, but with very limited vegetation. We did have pine and spruce in
the middle of the state, with each inch diameter of growth taking about a
century or so. I am not sure if anyone is considering how hard it
would be to do any major construction there. Also, consider that the US
Homestead Act was still in effect for Alaska up through the mid 1970s.
You did not have a stampede of settlers then, and the area of Canada in
the north is still very sparsely inhabited. Antarctica is not going to
change a lot under the conditions posed by Piper.
I have a
hard time with Piper's assumption that the Northern Hemisphere would be
so totally destroyed in a nuclear war. In The Return, you have a
somewhat flourishing group in Arizona making contact with a group in
Pennsylvania, also still surviving and apparently flourishing. That
does not sound like nuclear devastation to me. Mexico and the Caribbean
would not be hit that hard, if at all, along with most of Canada. How
hard is Hawaii going to be hit aside from Pearl Harbor? The same holds
true for the Philippines and Japan, and also China. What happens with
the Scandinavian countries? We now know that one of the main reasons
for the Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962 was that the U.S. had managed,
because of inadequate intelligence of the Soviet capabilities, achieved a
massive first=strike capability over the Soviet Union. Another thing
working against the idea of nuclear annihilation of the Northern
Hemisphere is the use in Uller Uprising of the records of the Manhattan
Project. Those are held by the National Archives in Washington, D. C.,
clearly the ground zero of a fair number of bombs, along with Los Alamos
Laboratory. Yet the records were being used in Uller Uprising. There
are internal problems with Piper's viewpoints.
One more thing
to remember. He was writing to sell material, not to present a history
of the Future. It worked out that way, mainly because it is always
easier to sell something that has a track record, verses something
totally new. I doubt if when Andre Norton wrote the first Witch World
novel or the first Solar Queen book that she planned on an entire
series. I suspect that the same holds true for Piper. The first
stories sold, and more using the same ideas were requested. Hence, the
Terran Future History series. Uller Uprising was written in 1952.
Space Viking, Cosmic Computer, and I think Little Fuzzy were all written
in 1963. They all shared similar background, but I am not looking for
massive internal consistency in them. Look at the number of headaches
in the Sherlock Holmes canon. Piper was a writer, not an historian.
|
Tanith in Oz 09-11-2017
13:06 UT
|
Yes I can absolutely accept Antarctica has become a bit of a backwater
during the Federation. But having said that by the time of the Empire
two areas on Terra are mentioned in The Keeper, the "cities of Awster
and fabulous Antark".
It's been pointed out that these names
are corruptions and abbreviations of previous names, Australia
(Awsteralia) and Antarctica (Antarktica). So clearly there must be some
cities of note in the South polar region, even during the Federation
for these two "cities" to be mentioned thousands of years later,
especially for the second to be "fabulous".
True these may be
nothing more than echoes, but it is interesting Piper chose to use these
and I have always thought he might have had something in mind. Perhaps
these were the last habitable places due to glaciation every where
else, but this is a little vague and doesn't explain why Antarctica
would no longer be cold, or would be considered habitable. Part of the
fun is to second guess what he may have intended. But the reason I've
proposed "Antarctic City" is to explain this idea from The Keeper of the
"Fabulous Antark". It's a long bow, but it might have a genesis in a
name such as I've proposed (ignoring the other possibility of the city
just being named after the old name for the continent).
So it's
hard to really say what kind of influence the Antarcticans may have
ever had, but this evidence from The Keeper is interesting.
But
there's another two regions of the southern hemisphere that Piper never
wrote about, that I think may have had a larger hand in the Federation.
We get numerous tales and clues about Africa, Australia and South
America but what about Indonesia and New Zealand?
Even during
Piper's time the Dutch East Indies had broken away from Dutch rule and
had become Indonesia. Back then they were the most populous Muslim
nation on Terra, as they are today. Therefore I find it odd we hear
nothing from them. It's to this nation that I think some Muslim
refugees might go, as well as Mocambique in Africa. Granted Muslims
don't get mentioned much at all, but it stands to reason that if some
did survive then fleeing to surviving established Muslim nations would
make sense. But again the Federation seems not to have any inclusion
from them. This is weird.
Most of Indonesia is well below the
equator, and though some of the island chains might be radiation
affected, other parts wouldn't be. I'm not sure whether any conclusions
can be drawn from this. But if we assume that the island chains were
completely destroyed in the 4th World War, then we begin to open the
door on a nuclear poisoned Northern Australia. This I don't believe
Piper intended. So this remains a mystery to me.
Then there's
New Zealand. Though their population was smaller during Piper's time,
this nation would make an excellent place for refugees to escape to. I
truly think this was one nation that Piper overlooked, and I think they
would have had a bigger part to play in the Federation as a whole, given
their close relationship with Australia.
But even wider than
this is the pacific islands. Though mega cities would never grow on
modestly small volcanic islands, the fact remains that many islands in
this part of the world are isolated and would have survived both atomic
wars. Again I find it unusual we hear nothing from these places too.
Add to this the notions that Polynesia was run as an overseas French
Territory and Americans were in Samoa, its very strange Piper didn't use
them as refugee sites too.
Perhaps I'm reading more into it
than I should but it seems to me that Piper was only really concerned
with the notion that the Federation was the nations of Australia, South
Africa, Argentina, Uruguay and Brazil. Other nations were there, but
the majority of his characters come from these places. I guess he
looked at the most populous places on the map and went with them and
wasn't that concerned with other places.
I understand how this probably happened, but I've always felt this probably should have had some explanation.
Oh well. Fun for us to speculate on then I guess.
Regards,
Terry
|
David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-10-2017
17:09 UT
|
~ James "jimmyjoejangles" Romanski wrote: > One of Shackleton's cabins is still there, intact > with food, and a stash of whiskey under the > floorboards. OR it was there like eight years ago. > Sounds like a good place for a colony. Perhaps
(though Cape Royds is a great deal farther south than most settlers
would want to be). I'm just guessing the Americans wouldn't call it
Shackleton if it were. > Besides that I think the Aussies would be first > to arrive on the scene in force, and would be > unlikely to repel other subjects of the > commonwealth. Perhaps,
but in the "real world" Australia has been pushing folks fleeing
Eurasia back into the sea for nearly two decades now. Dealing with the
refugees fleeing the Atomic Wars is going to make that exercise look
like a teenaged lifeguard chasing school kids out of a neighborhood pool
after someone failed to make it to the washroom in time. I'm guessing
Australia is going to be too busy trying to keep Darwin from becoming
the largest refugee camp on the planet to worry much about Antarctica. .
. . At the same time, you're right to point out that Australia
will have a "special relationship" with (Northern Hemisphere)
Commonwealth nations and is likely to welcome refugees from places like
Britain (and perhaps even post-Thirty Days' War, occupied India). Me,
I'm guessing that crown ended up in Raud's crypt because the British
monarch was eventually evacuated to Canberra or Sydney (or perhaps to
the original Government House in Melbourne). . . . Cheers, David -- "Britain
was a great nation, once; the last nation to join the Terran
Federation. . . ." - Lord "Dranigo" Dranigrastan (H. Beam Piper), "The
Keeper" ~ Edited 09-11-2017 05:24
|
jimmyjoejangles 09-10-2017
16:30 UT
|
One of Shackleton's cabins is still there, intact with food, and a stash
of whiskey under the floorboards. OR it was there like eight years
ago. Sounds like a good place for a colony.
Besides that I think
the Aussies would be first to arrive on the scene in force, and would
be unlikely to repel other subjects of the commonwealth.
|
David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-10-2017
16:26 UT
|
~
Terry "Tanith in Oz" Glouftsis wrote:
> With the Northern hemisphere destroyed, or
> largely damaged global warming may not
> occur. There would be a nuclear winter affect
> across the planet.
Both
"nuclear winter" _and_ "global warming" are concepts which arose
post-Piper. It may be that neither occurs in the Terro-human Future
History. What we know is that civilization was destroyed in the
Northern Hemisphere and that the Southern Hemisphere became the locus of
Terran civilization. We get snippets of the political and social
outcomes of the Atomic Wars--"Eurasian barbarians" and
"anti-technological movements"--but no details about ecological impacts
or outcomes.
> Second these bases were already there. They
> would have been points to escape too, and
> possibly to build from.
Oh,
absolutely. I imagine the Chileans and Argentinos, particularly, faced
with hordes of refugees from northern South America, Central America
and even North America making their way southward overland (and along
the Atlantic and Pacific coasts), will find it impossible to hang on to
their Antarctic stations in the face of American settlement efforts.
But in such circumstances the Americans are not going to stick with
names like "Orcadas" or "Bernardo O'Higgins."
> What I'm proposing is that in order to build
> cities bedrock would be required, as those cities
> would initially have to be largely underground
> to shelter from the weather.
Yep.
These settlements will be "burrow-cities, like the ones built in the
Northern Hemisphere of Terra during the Third and Fourth World Wars, or
like the cities on Luna and Mercury Twilight Zone and Titan."
> I know its pure speculation but if a Federation
> star port was to be constructed in Antarctica
> then a city would develop around it.
Perhaps,
but it seems the settlements in Antarctica become a Terran backwater.
Antarctica isn't mentioned when the new civilization rises "in South
America and South Africa and Australia." Even Glenn Murell gets the
heck out as soon as he can. . . .
This makes sense, of course.
Antarctica is an inhospitable place. Temperate regions in the Southern
Hemisphere will naturally thrive in the aftermath of the Atomic Wars.
And as the "reclamation projects" restore the Northern Hemisphere it
will become more and more attractive too, even to folks who were born
and raised in Antarctica. Thus, a starport in Antarctica seems
unlikely.
Cheers,
David
--
"It had been six months
to Litchfield when the ~Mizar~ lifted out of La Plata Spaceport and he
watched Terra dwindle away." - H. Beam Piper, ~Junkyard Planet~
~
|
David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-10-2017
15:09 UT
|
~
James "jimmyjoejangles" Romanski wrote:
> I propose Shackleton as a name for a city
> in Antarctica.
A likely candidate . . . if Britain were building settlements in Antarctica.
But
I'm guessing the Americans were unwilling to allow nations that refused
to join the (first) Terran Federation to resettle in what little
"habitable" territory could be carved out of Antarctica.
YMMV, of course.
David
--
"Britain was a great nation, once; the last nation to join the Terran Federation. . . ." - (H. Beam Piper), "The Keeper"
~
|
David Sooby 09-10-2017
13:52 UT
|
Quoting from FOUR-DAY PLANET:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I was born in Antarctica, on Terra. The water's a little too cold to do much swimming there."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I think there are two ways to look at this:
1.
He was being sarcastic. It's far, far too cold to swim in the water
there, or at least too cold for anything more than a brief dip in icy
water, as some crazy people in some Scandinavian country subject
themselves to on a regular basis. In this case, being born in a place as
desolate and hostile as Antarctica would be highly unusual.
2.
Being born in Antarctica was commonplace in the era, indicating that the
continent was much warmer; warm enough to grow food crops there which
would support a sizable human population.
But as has been pointed
out, the places that there are currently scientific outposts are *not*
where there would be cities (or towns) if there was a sizable population
living on Antarctica.
I suppose one could argue for a more
esoteric possibility; what if people are living in underground caves on
Antarctica and are growing food using hydroponics, with artificial
lighting provided by nuclear power?
While not impossible, I'd
certainly want to know why they would choose such a hostile place for
that. You could do the same just about anywhere above sea level, and not
have to deal with the constant cold, nor deal with living where the sun
never rises for months on end!
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clear ether!
David "Lensman" Sooby
|
David Sooby 09-10-2017
13:51 UT
|
David Johnson said:
> cultural signifiers you would find among mid-20th Century
> Americans, things like cocktail hour and Fuzzies named "Ko-Ko."
Perhaps
this is being pedantic on a trivial subject, but I'd like to point out
that "Ko-Ko" is a reference to "The Mikado", an opera (or "operetta") by
the very British team of Gilbert & Sullivan. Therefore, not
specifically an American cultural signifier. In fact, given that
Australia was a British Commonwealth country which survived the war in
question, and the USA didn't, it may very well be an Aussie cultural
signifier.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clear ether!
David "Lensman" Sooby
|
Tanith in Oz 09-10-2017
13:49 UT
|
RIP Jerry Pournelle. I know this is the Piper mailing list, but Jerry
carried the torch for a time. Now he and Piper can collaborate again.
|
Tanith in Oz 09-10-2017
06:37 UT
|
Yeah no problems there guys. I'm totally aware a lot of the bases
were abandoned, or were lost to sea (such in the case of Little America
when the glacier broke in 1987). However I've had two thoughts
on this. With the Northern hemisphere destroyed, or largely damaged
global warming may not occur. There would be a nuclear winter affect
across the planet. Perhaps not so bad in the southern hemisphere, but
enough that large glacial cracking might not occur as it has in our
lifetimes. Second these bases were already there. They would
have been points to escape to, and possibly to build from. What I'm
proposing is that in order to build cities bedrock would be required, as
those cities would initially have to be largely underground to shelter
from the weather. So over time though the bases were actually
abandoned, some of the names could have been carried over to the actual
settlements when they relocated to bedrock. The area closest to
Argentina definitely makes the most sense. But as the population
increased there would be further colonisation inwards across the
continent, then places like Amundsen-Scott might happen down the line,
but I do agree its less likely. I know its pure speculation but
if a Federation star port was to be constructed in Antarctica then a
city would develop around it. This is why I like the idea of "Antarctic
City", as this would serve for that. I also believe that "Little"
America or "New" America would be another city. Though I contend new
settlements might be named in memory of former bases, I can accept the
idea of Shackleton. So I think the 5 cities I'd name ships for
would be (taking into account I'm not actually going to use them),
Antarctic City, Little/New America, Shackleton, East Station and New
McMurdo. But of course that's what i think. Regards Terry Edited 09-10-2017 07:39
|
jimmyjoejangles 09-09-2017
23:39 UT
|
I propose Shackleton as a name for a city in Antarctica.
|
David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-09-2017
23:17 UT
|
~
Terry "Tanith in Oz" Glouftsis wrote:
> So upon second thought. Some of the bases
> might never become anything than towns, and
> others might remain affiliated to their nations.
Several
of the actual stations were abandoned over time, with the glacier they
were built on sometimes pushing them into the sea (or simply swallowing
them up). No reason why we can't rely upon that actual, physical
history to decide that some stations never became large settlements.
On
the other hand, I'm guessing that once they began to settle in
Antarctica after the Thirty Days' War, the Americans pretty much took
what they wanted from anyone else who wasn't also a (first) Terran
Federation member. This means the British stations in particular are
unlikely to remain under British control. . . .
> So I would speculate that it's much more likely
> that the permanent American bases would be
> the genesis of the new cities. That makes the
> sites of McMurdo, Amundsen-Scott,
> Little America, Palmer and East Station
> becoming the cities.
Here's
the thing. Many of the actual American stations were established
specifically to facilitate access to the Pole. That makes sense from a
scientific and flag-planting perspective but when you're thinking about
building actual _settlements_ for folks fleeing destruction in North
America (or Japan, say), the Pole is the _last_ place you want to be.
That
means Amundsen-Scott is likely out. McMurdo was chosen specifically
because it provided the southernmost sea access for expeditions headed
to the Pole so it's a poor settlement candidate too. The Little America
stations, which were all overcome by the glaciers, were also chosen as
southerly jumping-off points to reach the Pole. East Station (or Base),
off the coast of Palmer Land (the American name for the Antarctic
Peninsula would likely prevail in the Terro-human Future History), is
probably in the most populous region of Antarctica in the early
Federation era.
Cheers,
David
--
"I was born in
Antarctica, on Terra. The water's a little too cold to do much swimming
there. And I've spent most of my time since then in central Argentine,
in the pampas country." - Glenn Murell (H. Beam Piper), ~Four-Day
Planet~
~
|
jimmyjoejangles 09-09-2017
21:48 UT
|
I think we had a pretty tight lock down on Nuclear
information until well past Beam's death. There weren't really experts
until then because everyone working on it was right on the knife's edge
of technology. In the fifties they were trying to use nuclear power for
everything, and using it in many different ways to figure out what was
the best. The air force even tried to make a nuclear aircraft until
they realised they would just be throwing radiation everywhere it went.
I read a book about the reactor in Idaho that blew up. It was at the
Nuclear Reactor Test Station (NRTS), there were something like fifty
different reactors spread out over the site, including a wet tank where
the NAvy tested the submarine reactors. There is a lot to the story,
torrid love triangle gone bad. But the important thing is that when the
people at the other reactors found out what had happened, they were
surprised to find out what caused it because they didn't think that
something like that could happen. The operator had lifted the rods too
high and caused it to go critical, the reactor blew, pinned that guy to
the ceiling and spewed radiation into the surrounding dairy farmland.
THe milk from the cows was radioactive for weeks afterward and the
government didn't even tell the locals. The firemen who responded to
the accident didn't have any haz mat suits or anything, these were NRTS
firemen not local firemen. This was in 1961.
So based on the lack of knowledge in the budding nuclear industry at the time, I'm gonna let Beam slide on that one
|
David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-09-2017
17:43 UT
|
~
Gregg Levine wrote:
> I strongly suspect there's more there regarding Uller.
Do tell!
David
--
"Do
you know which books to study, and which ones not to bother with? Or
which ones to read first, so that what you read in the others will be
comprehensible to you? That's what they'll give you [at university].
The tools, which you don't have now, for educating yourself." - Bish
Ware (H. Beam Piper), ~Four-Day Planet~
~
|
David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-09-2017
17:41 UT
|
~
Terry "Tanith in Oz" Glouftsis wrote:
> I think there are ships that do the long runs
> visiting multiple planets, ships that run Terra
> to Baldur, Terra to Gimli, Terra to Uller, Terra
> to Marduk (Etc),
I
don't know. Sure, we sometimes hear that it's "six months to Terra"
but when we get details there always seem to be intermediate stops along
the way. Fenris (and Gimli) are clearly on a multiple-stop route in
~Four-Day Planet~ early in the Federation era. Indeed, part of the
reason the destroyer comes from Gimli to get Garrick seems to be so that
it can travel directly to Terra instead of along the spaceline route.
(And Gimli is apparently "off" the regular "milk run" through
Zarathustra.) Late in the Federation era Conn Maxwell gets a ride from
Terra to Odin--we don't know if it's "non-stop" or if there are
intermediate stops along the way--and then has to catch a second ship to
Poictesme.
> ships that never come back to Terra but run in
> between smaller populated worlds (such as
> Niflhem to Uller)
The ships we see traveling between Niflheim and Uller seem to be traveling along a longer, multi-stop route.
> and others that travel between the bigger worlds
> (Baldur-Marduk- but don't necessarily come to
> Terra.)
Well,
we see a ship traveling between Odin and Aton in ~Junkyard Planet~,
stopping at Poictesme along the way (without going on to Terra
apparently), but this is late in the Federation era. There may not be
enough traffic for this sort of thing earlier in the Federation era.
> Does this make sense? It would be similar to the
> Dutch East Indies Company where a lot of their
> ships rarely went back to Holland, but traded in
> their areas of posting, with only a few doing the
> long trek back when the need arose.
I
think the European colonial merchant companies are good models for
commerce in Beam's Federation. One observation here is that few, if any
European ships traveled directly between, say, Batavia and Antwerp.
Rather (simply for geographic reasons, if no other) they generally
stopped at several intermediate stops along the way. That fits well
with how Beam portrayed the "milk run" liners and freighters in the
Federation era.
There she is!
David
--
"The
Federation Government owns a bigger interest in the Company than the
public realizes, too. . . ." - Carlos von Schlichten (H. Beam Piper),
~Uller Uprising~.
~
|
David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-09-2017
15:44 UT
|
~
Dale Ridder wrote:
> What I have always been puzzled by is Piper's
> continued use of Plutonium for a reactor fuel.
> Aside from being much more sensitive with
> respect to critical mass size, by the mid-1950s
> it was pretty clear that nuclear reactors were
> going to be fueled with some form of enriched
> uranium
Good
question. Would this have been clear then to a guy who was a railroad
yard nightwatchman with no formal scientific training?
Is it
possible that Beam chose plutonium simply because the transuranics
seemed more "skiffy" to him (and to those he understood to be his
readers)?
Shoot the works!
David
--
"We talk glibly
about ten to the hundredth power, but emotionally we still count, 'One,
Two, Three, Many.'" - Otto Harkaman (H. Beam Piper), ~Space Viking~
~
|
Tanith in Oz 09-09-2017
13:48 UT
|
So upon second thought. Some of the bases might never become anything
than towns, and others might remain affiliated to their nations.
So
I would speculate that it's much more likely that the permanent
American bases would be the genesis of the new cities. That makes the
sites of McMurdo, Amundsen-Scott, Little America, Palmer and East
Station becoming the cities. "Antarctic City", which is pure invention,
might come later on with the growth of population, to serve as a
capital due to competing claims from the other cities.
This I think makes more sense.
What does everyone else think?
Regards,
Terry
|
Tanith in Oz 09-09-2017
13:48 UT
|
Ok. That's a fair point or too there David. Perhaps the cities of
Antarctica would form around some of the permanent scientific research
bases that existed there at the time of Piper's writing (US or others).
So Amundsen-Scott, Belgrano, Byrd, Casey, Davis, East, Ellsworth,
Halley, Little America, Mawson, McMurdo, Orcadas and Port Martin could
be cities.
I really like Little America, because this I could
see as a city name, or even "New America". I also like an invention I
came up with, "Antarctic City", this I think might be a likely one as
well.
Of course it's pure conjecture but if naming cities "New Chicago" etc.. aren't likely then perhaps this is more plausible.
Regards.
Terry
|
David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-09-2017
02:05 UT
|
~
Terry "Tanith in Oz" Glouftsis wrote:
> Did Piper actually give us names of the cities
> in Antarctica?
All
Beam ever told us was that Glenn Murell was born in Antarctica. His
ancestors may have been Americans . . . or any other English-speaking
folks.
We also know that North America was destroyed in the
Atomic Wars. There are no Federation starships named for New York or
Los Angeles or Chicago or Boston. . . .
But we also seem to find
all sorts of folks in Federation era yarns who have American-sounding
(or, again, English-language) names and use many of the cultural
signifiers you would find among mid-20th Century Americans, things like
cocktail hour and Fuzzies named "Ko-Ko." (On the other hand,
_political_symbols--things like the ubiquitous "Government House" on
most colony planets--follow a British, or perhaps Commonwealth model . .
. but that's a whole other story.) And, of course, those 1950's
American signifiers could simply be an indication of the market Beam was
writing in. . . .
We know that the International Geophysical
Year (IGY), which saw a burst of activity in Antarctica, and the
Antarctic Treaty which set aside any resolution of competing territorial
claims in Antarctica, occurred while Beam was writing his Terro-human
Future History yarns.
But anything other than that is conjecture.
I
figure those Americans whose descendants we see in later yarns have to
go _somewhere_ when North America is destroyed. And clearly, at the
time Beam was writing, America had the largest presence in Antarctica.
Other Northern Hemisphere folks whose descendants we see in later
yarns--like the Japanese--might have ended up in Antarctica too. (Japan
established a base in Antarctica during the IGY.) The British were in
Antarctica in a big way too when Beam was writing but have other places
in the Southern Hemisphere--Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, other
southern African states--where they might go relatively easily too.
> I'd imagine New Washington, New Los Angeles
> and New Houston could be likely. I also like
> South New York.
I
think these choices are actually less likely. If a city like New York
is destroyed in the Thirty Days' War it seems to me there will be a lot
of focus on trying to "rebuild" there and thus a political disincentive
to name a new settlement in Antarctica for it because that might suggest
the "recovery" wasn't going to be successful. And then, once the
Fourth World War comes 'round, there won't be anyone from North America
left to be naming _anything_ new in Antarctica. . . .
Cheers,
David
--
"I
was born in Antarctica, on Terra. The water's a little too cold to do
much swimming there. And I've spent most of my time since then in
central Argentine, in the pampas country." - Glenn Murell (H. Beam
Piper), ~Four-Day Planet~
~
|
David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-09-2017
01:24 UT
|
~
Terry "Tanith in Oz" Glouftsis wrote:
> But yes I certainly agree that numerous numerous
> African cities would be larger due to refugees
> fleeing from the Northern hemisphere.
It
won't just be southern--not just South--Africa which sees an influx of
Northern Hemisphere folks but all of the Southern Hemisphere. But _who_
ends up _where_ will be affected a great deal by the outcome of the
Thirty Days' War. It will depend upon which nations are part of the
losing Eastern Axis and which are members of the first, American-led
Terran Federation and which, like Britain, are _not_ part of either the
Federation or the Axis.
It will also depend upon which side these
nations subsequently end up on in the Fourth World War but it seems to
me that exodus will be much more chaotic and haphazard. The major
changes in the South will come in the aftermath of the Thirty Days' War
because that's when evacuation and emigration efforts will be formal and
organized. Most Northern Hemisphere folks will simply die in the
Fourth World War and their societies will be destroyed. That means
there will be little formal, organized evacuation and emigration in its
aftermath. Whether a Northern survivor ends being up a forefather of
the barbarians Reginald Fitzhurse fights in Eurasia or a refugee in the
Atacama Desert will be largely a matter of luck and happenstance.
> I can totally accept ideas such as Greeks in
> Mocambique, more Germans in South West
> Africa, Italians in Nyasaland and Russians
> in the Congo just to name some possibilities.
It
doesn't seem like many Russians (or Chinese) survive the Atomic Wars.
Now, some of this may be due to the "editorial direction" of the Cold
War era when Beam was writing but though we see descendants of lots of
different nationalities and ethnic groups in later Terro-Human Future
History yarns, we don't see many Russians (or Chinese).
> I do think this is completely reasonable given
> French collaborationists and Germans have
> already been established by Piper as having
> fled to South America.
Well,
this was just Beam extrapolating from actual, historical events but it
does raise the question of why he didn't portray any similar
circumstances for the Eastern Axis folks in the aftermath of the Atomic
Wars. I think this is because Easterners were not allowed by the Thirty
Days' War victors to leave Eurasia in any ordered or mass manner. And
then, after the Fourth World War, they were simply unable to flee in any
significant numbers.
> At the end of the day it's very reasonable to
> suggest that Africa would have a larger
> presence in the Federation and it's plausible
> that outside the Brazlian, Australian, South
> African and Argentine/Uruguay cities that
> some other African cities would likely place
> in the top 20 of Terra's largest population
> centres, and cities in Chile, Bolivia and Paraguay too.
Agreed.
David
--
"I
was born in Antarctica, on Terra. The water's a little too cold to do
much swimming there. And I've spent most of my time since then in
central Argentine, in the pampas country." - Glenn Murell (H. Beam
Piper), ~Four-Day Planet~
~
|
Gregg Levine 09-09-2017
00:09 UT
|
Basically right Dale. The ones we used then, thankfully the only ones we
ever used, were basically tactical nukes. What an individual in a
different book and reality would call a pony bomb. Typically the size
you've quoted. It would need obliterate a city about the size of then
ones on Uller, but only do what happened here. I strongly suspect
there's more there regarding Uller. In fact since Piper used the Sepoy
Mutiny as a basis, I promptly had to look it up as soon as circumstances
allowed, after re-reading the book.
|
Dale Ridder 09-08-2017
21:29 UT
|
Re Terry's comment on Buenos Aires:
Earlier in Uller Uprising, Piper makes the following statement.
"They
visited the school, where young Kragans were being taught to read
Lingua Terra and studied from textbooks printed in Johannesburg and
Sydney and Buenos Aires."
Buenos Aires clearly is still around.
The Nagasaki Bomb, or Fat Man, that they were trying to duplicate on
Ulles had a yield of about 22 kilotons, per DA Pam 50-3, The Effects of
Nuclear Weapons, March 1977. While that would do quite a bit of damage
to a large city, it would not come anywhere near destroying it. Both
Hiroshima and Nagasaki have been rebuilt. A surface burst would leave a
pretty large crater, but given Buenos Aires location, that would most
like turn into a large circular lake or harbor area.
What I have
always been puzzled by is Piper's continued use of Plutonium for a
reactor fuel. Aside from being much more sensitive with respect to
critical mass size, by the mid-1950s it was pretty clear that nuclear
reactors were going to be fueled with some form of enriched uranium,
with civilian reactors using a low-enriched form and the naval reactors
basically using weapons-grade material. You can use plutonium in a
reactor, but in combination with uranium, preferably depleted U-238 in
some form of breeder reactor.
You can make a nuclear bomb from
reactor-grade plutonium, but your yield is going to be highly variable
due to the presence of Plutonium-240, a spontaneous neutron emitter,
which is why the Fat Man was an implosion weapon rather than a gun-type
device like the Little Boy.
|
David Sooby 09-08-2017
21:29 UT
|
Terry "Tanith in Oz" said:
> Does this make sense? It would be similar to the Dutch East Indies
> Company where a lot of their ships rarely went back to Holland,
> but traded in their areas of posting, with only a few doing the
> long trek back when the need arose.
Of
course it makes sense. It's only natural that some ships will travel
longer routes than others, and some ships will make more stops along
their trade routes than others. It's also only natural that some ships
will occasionally make longer voyages when the economic need arises for
that.
Even if we assume a Byzantine system of interlocking trade
treaties which restrict or mandate which ships can operate on which
routes, economic necessity is still going to rule! Every shipping
company must be able to make an overall profit, even if certain
contracts or charters force it to run some routes at a loss. If it can't
make an overall profit, then it won't stay in business long. Nothing
can alter that basic economic reality!
What makes a lot less
sense is that a company with a lot of ships would name every single one
of them "City of...". They might well do that for their top-of-the-line
ships, but most shipping companies with that many ships are going to
have several classes of ships, and it's probably not going to use the
same naming scheme for different classes.
Even the White Star line had several ship names which did not end in "-ic".
|
Tanith in Oz 09-08-2017
13:33 UT
|
The reason why I ask about the cities of Antarctica is that the more I
think about it the more I'm convinced Terra - Baldur - Marduk has to
operate a lot of ships. If ships departing Niflheim are "monthly" as
suggested in Uller Uprising, and travel times between some worlds can be
anywhere from 2-8 months, then to keep trade going to all the worlds
the company visits, then there has to be at least 40 ships, at a
minimum.
This is of course a bare minimum, but I think there's more.
I
think there are ships that do the long runs visiting multiple planets,
ships that run Terra to Baldur, Terra to Gimli, Terra to Uller, Terra to
Marduk (Etc), ships that never come back to Terra but run in between
smaller populated worlds (such as Niflhem to Uller) and others that
travel between the bigger worlds (Baldur-Marduk- but don't necessarily
come to Terra.)
So thinking on this the company could run up to
at least 100 ships, one third of which travel to Terra and the other 2
thirds which usually go in between other planets and do long runs (of
which occasionally some of these might return to Terra)
Does this
make sense? It would be similar to the Dutch East Indies Company where
a lot of their ships rarely went back to Holland, but traded in their
areas of posting, with only a few doing the long trek back when the need
arose.
I've had some fun creating a list of these ships and in
order to hit 100 I've had to create some American cities in Antarctica.
And this is why I suddenly wondered if we know of any American cities
in the polar region.
Regards
Terry
|
Tanith in Oz 09-08-2017
13:33 UT
|
I just thought of this.
Did Piper actually give us names of the
cities in Antarctica? I'd imagine New Washington, New Los Angeles and
New Houston could be likely. I also like South New York.
These are pure invention on my part, but do we have any actual names?
Regards
Terry
|
Jon Crocker 09-08-2017
05:58 UT
|
Earlier David had mentioned "City of..." ships might have been branding.
I
think there's a good argument for that. Two of the leading UK shipping
companies in Victorian times were Cunard and White Star. Names of
ships in the Cunard line usually ended in -ia, Laconia, Carmania,
Lusitania. White Star ships names ended in -ic, Adriatic, Oceanic,
Olympic. And Titanic, but that's another discussion.
It took me a
bit to find the reference, turns out it was background for Space: 1889
in Challenge Magazine issue 39, but some wikipedia articles confirm
this. :)
|
Tanith in Oz 09-08-2017
05:58 UT
|
Hmm.
Kankad says in Uller Uprising "there was that A-bomb that
the Christian Anarchist Party put together at Buenos Aires in 378 A.E".
I've
always taken that to mean Buenos Aires is destroyed. Does everyone
else agree with that? That's part of the reason I haven't included a
City of Buenos Aires in my ship list.
But on third thought
there's no reason it couldn't be. And a City of Johannesberg could be
included too (but I felt using too many names from one country too often
might be a little biased, given I'd already done it once with three
from Australia)
Regards
Terry
|
Tanith in Oz 09-08-2017
03:06 UT
|
No problems David. I'm on the same wavelength, regarding Luanda.
That's why I've chosen City of Sao Paolo. To me it's a double banger.
It's the name of a city in Brazil, but it is also a part of the old name
of Luanda, São Paulo da Assunção de Loanda. I feel this way it
can be a nod either way, depending on your point of view. But yes I
certainly agree that numerous African cities would be larger due to
refugees fleeing from the Northern hemisphere. I can totally
accept ideas such as Greeks in Mocambique, more Germans in South West
Africa, Italians in Nyasaland and Russians in the Congo just to name
some possibilities. I do think this is completely reasonable given
French collaborationists and Germans have already been established by
Piper as having fled to South America. At the end of the day
it's very reasonable to suggest that Africa would have a larger presence
in the Federation and it's plausible that outside the Brazlian,
Australian, South African and Argentine/Uruguay cities that some other
African cities would likely place in the top 20 of Terra's largest
population centres, and cities in Chile, Bolivia and Paraguay too. The
tale I'm crafting will be Australian centric, but I'm also going to
throw the Kiwis a bone and make some New Zealand references (as I think
this was one nation that Piper really never considered and would have
seen mass migration too, due to the security, isolation and development
that nation already had at the time of his writing.) Therefore
characters I'm crafting will reflect my thoughts, but there are Africans
there too (one of the characters will interact very extensively with
the protagonist and he's of Japanese and Angolan heritage). But I've
also got a Brazilian and a Maori as well, because, like why not? So
yes it's all food for thought. But going back to the ships there no
reason why we couldn't create many, many more "City of..." as Piper
himself never really set a ceiling on just how big some of the trading
companies were, therefore meaning fleets of ships could be a real
possibility. Regards Terry Edited 09-08-2017 05:54
|
David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-08-2017
01:05 UT
|
~
Terry "Tanith in Oz" Glouftsis wrote:
> But though I don't mind Lourenco Marques
> I'm not all that keen on using it as the city
> was never all that big and does strike me in
> a similar way that Port Villa or Noumea
> would. So for now I'm laying that one
> aside, but certainly I'm not saying that it
> couldn't be used.
Not
trying to advocate for ~City of Lourenco Marques~ in your yarn
specifically (it's an awkward ship name regardless) but let's remember
what was going on in "Mocambique" when Beam was writing and then give
some thought to what that might mean for that region in the early period
of the Federation era.
Shortly before Beam began writing his
Terro-human Future History yarns the former colonies of Portuguese East
Africa were incorporated into Portugal proper as the province of
Mocambique. In this period Portugal was an anti-Communist dictatorship
and NATO member. In other words a key U.S. ally desperately going
against the grain of other, democratic European nations in trying to
hold on to its African colonies.
I think this makes
Portugal--including Mocambique--a prime candidate for membership in the
first Terran Federation. Thus, when the Thirty Days' War breaks out,
Portugal--unlike Britain (and perhaps France)--is firmly in the Terran
Federation camp. And that makes its Southern Hemisphere territories
likely targets for Terran Federation refugees fleeing the destruction of
the Thirty Days' War. Folks in places like Pakistan and Iran and the
Islamic Caliphate and Turkey (the members of what was CENTO--under the
Baghdad Pact--when Beam was writing and all likely first Terran
Federation members) and perhaps even places like Greece and (West)
Germany are going to look at Mocambique and Angola as attractive, allied
refuge destinations.
And then, once the Fourth World War
destroys civilization in the Northern Hemisphere, Angola and Mocambique
are going to be most of what remains of the old, first Terran
Federation, outside of the American redoubt in Antarctica. Luanda and
Lourenco Marques likely will get much larger under those circumstances.
Tchau,
David
--
"You
either went on to the inevitable catastrophe, or you realized, in time,
that nuclear armament and nationalism cannot exist together on the same
planet, and it is easier to banish a habit of thought than a piece of
knowledge." - H. Beam Piper, ~Uller Uprising~
~
|
David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-07-2017
15:13 UT
|
~
Jon Crocker wrote:
> But, if we agree that 1/723rd of the total volume,
> or 0.001383 of the total, is set aside for cargo
> space to haul supplies and the like, you've got a
> supertanker's worth of cargo space on every Navy
> ship.
Those
a some _very_ conservative assumptions, Jon! I'm convinced. It seems
unlikely any Piper starship will want for cargo space.
> For a ship that large, a rounding error will give
> you plus/minus a supertanker's worth of volume.
Excellent point.
> Yes, wet navies have always used their own ships
> for transport, but this isn't a wet navy any more,
> and wet navies never had ships half a mile in
> diameter sailing the seven seas.
I
think, also, that Beam was using a rather different model for his
starships and (naval and merchant) fleets. They may look like spherical
contemporary aircraft carriers (or super-freighters) but conceptually
they are more like Seventeenth Century sailing ships. . . .
> By the numbers above I find it quite reasonable
> that Navy ships could carry lots of supplies for
> long-duration patrols and be ready for action with
> little notice.
Which also sort of fits with a rather small Navy that isn't expected to fight a large adversary across a huge volume of space.
> If you had 'regular' civilian ships on supply runs
> from Terra to the different Navy bases, I find it
> quite reasonable that Navy ships would stock
> up at the base and be ready to go for another
> long-duration patrol.
Agreed
again. I imagine, at least in the Federation era, that there is a
rather symbiotic relationship between the Navy and the
quasi-governmental Spacelines.
> Of course, there just isn't any information one
> way or the other in the stories, and reasonable
> people can disagree over such things, so YMMV.
I think I've found another signature line. ;)
There she is!
David
--
"THFH
is contragravity crazy. Beer coolers are probably outfitted with it
for ease of transport to the beach." - Jackson Russell, H. Beam Piper
Mailing List and Discussion Forum, September 4, 2016
~
|
David Sooby 09-07-2017
13:37 UT
|
Jon Crocker said:
> Yes, wet navies have always used their own ships for transport,
> but this isn't a wet navy any more, and wet navies never had
> ships half a mile in diameter sailing the seven seas.
While
that's certainly true, I question that the point is relevant to the
Piperverse. As has been pointed out in recent posts, both by you and
others, *all* the commercial interstellar ships in the Federation, both
passenger liners and freighters, are several hundred times as large in
volume as our modern supertankers. If any company is able to make a
profit shipping passengers around on a ship that size, then those same
economics indicate it would be equally economical for the Navy to use
its own transport ships.
And if you want to argue that the Navy
would be using capital warships to carry passengers and supplies...
well, the British Navy sometimes did that in the age of sail, too, at
least where war material and critical supplies were involved. Not so
much with ordinary supply runs, but then the Federation Navy could
contract with civilian freighters for that, just as the British navy
did.
So I think we could make a case for that being a reasonable scenario.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clear ether!
David "Lensman" Sooby
|
Tanith in Oz 09-07-2017
06:18 UT
|
Ah good points. Yes you're probably right about the smaller
cities. I had thought some of them may have developed over time, but
its true they probably wouldn't get big enough to name ships after
though. Ok so let's ditch those ones then. But I do like
the City of Salisbury and the City of Mafeking, this does make a lot of
sense to me. And if I could be indulgent the City of Salisbury is even
much more amusing to me as I live in the Northern suburbs of Adelaide in
Salisbury East, within the Salisbury Council district. So though the
proposed ship would be named for what used to be Harare in Southern
Rhodesia, it echoes my actual reality - funny that. So my thoughts then on at least 12 of the ships making the Terra/Baldur/Marduk run circa 600AE are; City of Canberra City of Pretoria City of Montevideo City of Kapstaad City of Sydney City of Salisbury City of Mafeking City of Auckland City of Santiago City of Melbourne City of Wellington City of Sao Poulo Some
of these would be recommissioned ships, whilst others would be new ones
with the same names as older vessels from a 100 years previously. I'm
not saying I'd use all of these names, but I think these would be much
more likely names taking the advice onboard. But though I don't
mind Lourenco Marques I'm not all that keen on using it as the city was
never all that big and does strike me in a similar way that Port Villa
or Noumea would. So for now I'm laying that one aside, but certainly
I'm not saying that it couldn't be used. Much like Tananarive,
Leopoldville or Zanzibar too. Regards, Terry Edited 09-07-2017 09:10
|
David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-07-2017
05:23 UT
|
~
Terry "Tanith in Oz" Glouftsis wrote:
> Names like City of Auckland, City of Port Vila
> and City of Noumea. I could also consider
> others like City of Melbourne, City of Santiago
> and City of Cape Town as well.
I'm
not sure Port Vila or Noumea would be large enough--even after an
influx of Northern Hemisphere refugees in the aftermath of the Atomic
Wars--to warrant having a starship named after them but the ~City of
Kapstaad~ is a Terra-Baldur-Marduk liner in ~Fuzzy Sapiens~.
The
name illustrates an interesting idea Beam was playing with: using the
"local" names for Southern Hemisphere places. This would seem to be
pretty straightforward in Australia/ New Zealand and in South America
but it gets interesting in southern Africa. Besides the Afrikaans names
for places like Cape Town you're going to have cities in places like
what are now Botswana and Zimbabwe and Mozambique which may still have
names from when they were European colonies.
So, perhaps, ~City
of Lourenco Marques~ rather than ~City of Maputo~, ~City of Salisbury~
rather than ~City of Harare~ and ~City of Mafeking~ rather than ~City of
Gabarone~.
> If the naming convention for merchant ships
> follows this pattern then I'm thinking this
> would be logical.
Don't
forget the Terra-Odin Spacelines ships ~Cape Canaveral~ and
~Peenemunde~ and Pan-Federation Spacelines' ~Magellanic~ and ~Callisto~
which suggest that the "City of . . ." convention isn't a
Federation-wide practice but rather something more like branding. . . .
There she is!
David
--
"You
know what Lingua Terra is? An indiscriminate mixture of English,
Spanish, Portuguese and Afrikaans, mostly English. And you know what
English is? The result of the efforts of Norman men-at-arms to make
dates with Saxon barmaids." - Victor Grego (H. Beam Piper), ~Fuzzy
Sapiens~
~
|
Tanith in Oz 09-07-2017
02:41 UT
|
Hi all.
I've been thinking about those ships that service
Niflheim and Uller. I would imagine some of these ships might be
retired and/or decomissioned as time goes on.
Piper mentions
three, City of Canberra, City of Pretoria and City of Montevideo. I'm
thinking say 100 years later one or two of these may be retired. Though
technically it's possible for the recommissioning of new ships with the
same names (like Star Trek) I've been playing around with new names.
Names
like City of Auckland, City of Port Vila and City of Noumea. I could
also consider others like City of Melbourne, City of Santiago and City
of Cape Town as well. If the naming convention for merchant ships
follows this pattern then I'm thinking this would be logical.
Does this make sense?
Regards
Terry
|
David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-07-2017
01:26 UT
|
~
Terry "Tanith in Oz" Glouftsis wrote:
> I'd assumed the ships were more commercial in
> nature than naval, but I too was finding size
> descriptions that made some naval ships and
> these ships the same sizes.
There
are probably starship builders in the Federation (and Empire) era which
produce ships for both the military and for commercial use. It would
not surprise me if many commercial ships are built using the same basic
hulls as warships (or vice versa).
I mean, at some level, there's
no real difference in the basic ship design when trying to get from one
interstellar destination to the another. Perhaps warships have
somewhat "better" hyperdrives--whatever that means--and obviously they
will fill up what would be cargo space in a commercial liner or
freighter with weapons bays and shield generators. But the pseudograv
generators and the carniculture vats and the life support systems will
often be of similar design.
When the System States War breaks
out, I would expect that the Alliance Navy is comprised primarily of
former Federation Navy ships, but the Alliance may convert some
commercial ships into warships too, especially in the early years of the
war before its shipyards can gear up for military production. After
the war, those ships would have been destroyed or perhaps converted back
to commercial use.
Remember Ashmodai! Remember Belphegor!
David
--
"A
lot of technicians are girls, and when work gets slack, they're always
the first ones to get shoved out of jobs." - Sylvie Jacquemont (H. Beam
Piper), ~Junkyard Planet~
~
|
jimmyjoejangles 09-07-2017
00:56 UT
|
Gregg Levine said
>
Yes but who here does know who Mr Penrose was. I believe I do. But I'm not about to supply an answer.
This is a trick question right? Or are you saying it isn't named after the Colonel in Omnilingual?
Jon
all your stuff looks good except maybe look up a super freighter and
not a tanker. The key difference is that a tanker is meant to be filled
right up with a liquid or something small enough to fill in the edges
like coal or plastic pellets or the like. A lot of space would be taken
up by shelves and stowage straps and locks for traveling at high
speeds. Even a good warehouse manager can't stack right to the ceiling,
so we would be loosing lots of space , but like you say they would
still have plenty of space.
|
Jon Crocker 09-06-2017
18:00 UT
|
I think the "Penrose" from "Naudsonce" is one of [or only?] the only
times a Federation-era Navy ship has its size nailed down, so I'll use
that as a standard.
"Almost half a mile in diameter" - google
tells me that half a mile is 2640 feet, "Penrose" is almost that, so go
with 2500 foot diameter, nice round number. Radius would be half
diameter so 1250.
It gets a bit google-y and work-showing for a bit, so hang on.
I
googled 'volume of a sphere calculator' and punched in 1250, and it has
a volume of 8.19 x ten to the 9th feet, or 8,190,000,000 cubic feet.
Supertankers, per another google search, can ship a volume of 320,000 cubic meters.
One cubic meter is 35.3xxx cubit feet.
Converting
and dividing, a ship 'almost half a mile in diameter' would have about
as much volume as 723.8 and a bit supertankers.
Now of course a
lot of this is taken up by the drives, life support, guns-and-missiles,
armouries, the ship itself and its machinery, etc.
But, if we
agree that 1/723rd of the total volume, or 0.001383 of the total, is set
aside for cargo space to haul supplies and the like, you've got a
supertanker's worth of cargo space on every Navy ship. If that's too
much, half of that is one part in 1446, and you still get half a
supertanker's worth.
For a ship that large, a rounding error will give you plus/minus a supertanker's worth of volume.
Yes,
wet navies have always used their own ships for transport, but this
isn't a wet navy any more, and wet navies never had ships half a mile in
diameter sailing the seven seas.
By the numbers above I find
it quite reasonable that Navy ships could carry lots of supplies for
long-duration patrols and be ready for action with little notice. If
you had 'regular' civilian ships on supply runs from Terra to the
different Navy bases, I find it quite reasonable that Navy ships would
stock up at the base and be ready to go for another long-duration
patrol.
Of course, there just isn't any information one way or
the other in the stories, and reasonable people can disagree over such
things, so YMMV.
|
David Sooby 09-06-2017
13:36 UT
|
Jon Crocker said:
> Until the System States War, the Federation Navy seemed
> to own the space lanes - I'd expect that if they needed
> a lot of troops moved, they'd just charter a civilian
> ship - after all, if there's not any risk, they wouldn't
> need the expense of a separate service.
Wet
navies have pretty much always used their own ships for transport. They
might press civilian ships into service as transports in an emergency,
or during a major war, but certainly that would be the exception, not
the rule. And if they did press a civilian ship into service, it would
likely be for the duration of the war, not just for a single voyage.
It's
hard to believe the Federation navy would do things differently,
especially with the lack of FTL communications forcing the Navy to
operate largely independently of central command, as well as using ships
as couriers to carry important interstellar messages.
Even if we
envision a scenario where the Navy has a lot more personnel than it has
warships, it's still going to use its own transport ships. Depending on
civilian ships for transport would cause unnecessary delays in an
emergency situation. Let us keep in mind the entire purpose of the Navy,
the reason the government is willing to bear the high expense of that
Navy, is to react quickly and decisively during emergencies. That will
be true even if the Navy has relatively few capital warships.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clear ether!
David "Lensman" Sooby
|
Tanith in Oz 09-06-2017
13:35 UT
|
Thanks all. Some great insights there. I'd assumed the ships were more
commercial in nature than naval, but I too was finding size
descriptions that made some naval ships and these ships the same sizes.
And that was momentarily alarming for me.
But the idea of a 1920s/30s freighter carrying some passengers is a good one. I think that's the winner with me.
Regards
Terry
|
Gregg Levine 09-06-2017
13:35 UT
|
Yes but who here does know who Mr Penrose was. I believe I do. But I'm not about to supply an answer.
Incidentally
you are all aware of a problem Wolf is having with visiting members of
the Fuzzy community? One left his laptop outside. Another has been seen
repeatedly dumping wastepaper baskets and filling them. Still another
found a stash of MREs at a sporting goods shop that also doubles as a
surplus store. He at them all specializing on the breakfast ones. And
still another is making a big mess of the local government offices.
|
David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-06-2017
06:21 UT
|
~
Jon Crocker wrote:
> The merchant ships seemed to get bigger as time
> passed, weren't they about a mile in diameter for
> a big chunk of the Federation period?
Beam
was all over the map--shipyard?--here. The ~City of Pretoria~ in
~Uller Uprising~ is three-thousand feet in diameter. The largest
hyperships produced at the shipyards on Koshchei were also
three-thousand feet in diameter. The battle cruiser ~Hubert Penrose~ in
"Naudsonce" was "almost half a mile in diameter" (while the Empire-era
cruisers in "A Slave is a Slave" were three-thousand feet in diameter).
Space
Viking ships ~Nemesis~ and ~Enterprise~ were two-thousand feet in
diameter (same size as ~Peenemunde~ in ~Four-Day Planet~). Many of the
Mardukan warships were fifteen-hundred feet in diameter and some were
only one-thousand (same size as the ~Stellex~ from "When in the
Course--").
On the other hand, the Empire era ~Empress Eulalie~ was "almost a mile in diameter."
> A ship a mile in diameter can carry a whole lot of
> cargo, freight, passengers, probably all of the above.
Yup.
Yves Jacquemont gives some insight into this when Conn asks him about
the possibility of converting an interplanetary ship into a hypership:
"Possible.
But the average interplanetary ship isn't very big; five hundred to
seven-fifty feet in diameter. One of those things couldn't carry more
than a couple of hundred people, after you put in all the supplies and
the hydroponic tanks and carniculture vats and so on for a four- to
six-month voyage. I can't see the economy of altering anything that
small for interstellar work. Why, the smallest of these tramp
freighters that come in here will run about fifteen hundred feet."
A hypership which could carry "a couple of hundred people" wouldn't be economical!
(That
doesn't mean smaller hyperships didn't get built. A Space Viking
pinnace was four-hundred foot while Adriaan de Ruyter's ~Voortrekker~ in
"When in the Course--" was only two-hundred foot. . . .)
There she is!
David
--
"A two thousand foot freighter had a great deal of cargo space." - H. Beam Piper, ~Space Viking~
~
|
Jon Crocker 09-06-2017
05:04 UT
|
The merchant ships seemed to get bigger as time passed, weren't they
about a mile in diameter for a big chunk of the Federation period? A
ship a mile in diameter can carry a whole lot of cargo, freight,
passengers, probably all of the above.
Until the System States
War, the Federation Navy seemed to own the space lanes - I'd expect that
if they needed a lot of troops moved, they'd just charter a civilian
ship - after all, if there's not any risk, they wouldn't need the
expense of a separate service.
|
David Sooby 09-06-2017
04:11 UT
|
Terry "Tanith in Oz" asked:
> A question, or two. The City of Canberra and the City of
> Pretoria were ships that operated between Niflheim and
> Uller. Were these Naval ships or passenger ships?
As
Niflehiem was a "hell planet", it almost certainly had no permanent
colonists. The only reason Terro-humans were there was to mine uranium,
so almost certainly any ships regularly traveling there are primarily
freighters, carrying supplies to the outpost and bringing uranium back,
for shipment to whatever market it was destined for.
But let us
be aware that, at least in the era before airline travel became common,
freighters did often carry a small number of passengers. (This is
something I only learned when reading about the life of M.C. Escher, who
regularly traveled on freighters, in preference to passenger ships,
back in the 1920s-30s.) I would expect the Chartered Uller Company to
contract for freighters to regularly pick up uranium from the outpost,
while bringing in supplies and rotations of personnel manning the
mining/refinery station. Or perhaps even buy a ship or two and operate
those ships themselves, if the supply runs were frequent enough.
I
don't think there is any reason to think the Navy is running passenger
liners. But as with modern "wet navies", I would think the Navy probably
does operate its own troop transports and supply ships. Even there,
though, they probably have a lot of consumables and other non-combat
material delivered by civilian freighter to military bases and possibly
even fleets on station, so long as it's not in a hazardous zone. The
Navy may have some "merchant marine" freighters to deliver supplies in
hazardous zones. But given the lack of any mention of such hazardous
zones in any story, before the System States War happened, I suspect any
"merchant marine" service, if it existed at all, was pretty small until
that conflict arose.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clear ether!
David "Lensman" Sooby
|
David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-04-2017
23:03 UT
|
~ Was looking a bit more closely at this illustration by Kelly Freas from the original ~Astounding~ publication of "Time Crime~: http://www.cmadras.com/252/252w1_files/image014.jpgNote
the badge on the shoulders of the Paracops. I've never noticed it
before--and clearly it's a mistake because the Paratimers didn't use the
Roman alphabet--but it's pretty cool nonetheless. Reminds me of this: http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NjYwWDg4MA==/z/zEIAAOSw0e9U1Mzu/$_1.JPGEnjoy, David -- "You
know, most of the wars they've been fighting, lately, on the
Europo-American Sector have been, at least in part, motivated by rivalry
for oil fields." - Verkan Vall (H. Beam Piper), "Temple Trouble," 1951 ~ Edited 09-05-2017 03:51
|
David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-04-2017
22:57 UT
|
Paratime Police logo (by Kelly Freas, from "Time Crime")
|
David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-04-2017
21:21 UT
|
~ James "jimmyjoejangles" Romanski wrote: > To be honest I assumed that both ships were > capitalist ventures by their perspective cities. At
least two of the ~City~ ships are Terra-Baldur-Marduk Spacelines ships.
It seems likely ~City of Malverton~ is a Terra-Baldur-Marduk ship too.
Terra-Baldur-Marduk, Terra-Odin and Pan-Federation seem to be huge
companies with government-guarranteed monopolies. Whatever Beam himself
may have believed about capitalism, the economy he crafted in the
Federation era was hardly the sort of "unfettered capitalism" many
contemporary Americans dream about. The economy Beam showed us in the
Federation is full of government-protected monopolies--what else is a
"chartered company"?--and financed by the "Banking Cartel" (whatever in
Satan's name that's supposed to be). > The capitalists on Terra would have been taxed > profusely on all the costs of ships and training, > so they would expect some protection on their > investment, hence the large Navy. I
don't recall anyone in the Federation era complaining about taxation
from Terra. What Beam gives us, if only tangentially, are complaints in
"Graveyard of Dreams" and ~Junkyard Planet~ from folks who were unhappy
with what we might call the "state capitalism" of the Federation and
who eventually rebelled against it--only to be put down by Foxx Travis
and that Navy you've mentioned. Remember Ashmodai! Remember Belphegor! David -- "Considering
the one author about whom I am uniquely qualified to speak, I question
if any reader of H. Beam Piper will long labor under the
misunderstanding that he is a pious Christian, a left-wing liberal, a
Gandhian pacifist, or a teetotaler." - H. Beam Piper, "Double: Bill
Symposium" interview ~ Edited 09-05-2017 03:53
|
jimmyjoejangles 09-04-2017
19:12 UT
|
Beam was a capitalist and a Railman. Private industry moves faster then
government. To be honest I assumed that both ships were capitalist
ventures by their perspective cities. Capitalism is what will drive
most of our ships into space. The capitalists on Terra would have been
taxed profusely on all the costs of ships and training, so they would
expect some protection on their investment, hence the large Navy.
|
David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-04-2017
17:33 UT
|
~
Terry "Tanith in Oz" Glouftsis wrote:
> The City of Canberra and the City of Pretoria
> were ships that operated between Niflheim
> and Uller.
The ~City of Montevideo~ served that route too. It stopped at Uller when traveling inbound from Niflheim to Terra.
> Were these Naval ships or passenger ships?
As you suggest, with the regular service these seem like commercial liners, not warships.
The
"City of . . ." naming convention was fairly common for commercial
liners in the Federation era. Conn Maxwell travels on the ~City of
Asgard~ from Odin to Poictesme on his way home from Terra. The ~City of
Nefertiti~ stops at Poictesme when it travels between Aton and Odin.
In ~Fuzzy Sapiens~, the ~City of Malverton~ and the ~City of Kapstaad~,
which is a Terra-Baldur-Marduk liner, stop at Zarathustra. In ~Fuzzies
and Other People~, Hugo Ingerman flees Zarathustra aboard
Terra-Baldur-Marduk's ~City of Konkrook~ (which is a nice bookend to the
ships in ~Uprising~).
> this makes me think that both vessels are
> scheduled passenger/transport ships (possibly
> even Stellex?).
The ~Stellex~, from "When in the Course--," is a private vessel, neither a warship nor a commercial liner.
> Given that the line to Zarathustra from Terra
> is owned by one company, is it fair to assume
> that most transport in the Federation is non
> military unless emergencies or haste are required?
We
don't see warships being used for regular transport in the Federation
era. What we see are two types of commercial travel: the spaceline
ships which seem to travel scheduled routes, generally between Terra and
some major world(s), and various sorts of irregular merchant vessels
(the sorts by which news of the Fuzzies is expected to get to Gimli).
It seems likely, though the details are inconclusive, that the major
spacelines generally have some sort of monopoly rights on most planets,
often associated with operation of the spaceport.
I like to think
of it as a frontier town served by a railroad. Most regular transport,
things like mail and commerce that needs a reliable schedule, comes on
the train, but other folks wander through from time to time, mostly
unexpectedly and infrequently. And then a calvary troop comes by on
occasion too, not in any regularly-scheduled manner but often enough to
leave the "bad guys" wary about starting much trouble.
There she is!
David
--
"I
was born in Antarctica, on Terra. The water's a little too cold to do
much swimming there. And I've spent most of my time since then in
central Argentine, in the pampas country." - Glenn Murell (H. Beam
Piper), ~Four-Day Planet~
~
|
Tanith in Oz 09-04-2017
13:35 UT
|
Hi all.
A question, or two. The City of Canberra and the City of
Pretoria were ships that operated between Niflheim and Uller. Were
these Naval ships or passenger ships?
When Lourenco Gomes
mentions he's going on the later and can't catch the Canberra this makes
me think that both vessels are scheduled passenger/transport ships
(possibly even Stellex?). The fact they seem to be scheduled a month
or so apart lends credibility to this in my mind.
Given that the
line to Zarathustra from Terra is owned by one company, is it fair to
assume that most transport in the Federation is non military unless
emergencies or haste are required?
Terry
|
David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-02-2017
19:12 UT
|
~
Terry "Tanith in Oz" Glouftsis wrote:
> I especially like the idea you've suggested that
> Piper abandoned the idea of Martian origins for
> Terran civilization. Though Genesis does suggest
> Martians came to Earth, the story does show
> them falling into barbarity.
Nothing
explicitly connects "Genesis" to Paratime--or to the Terro-human Future
History--and it's possible to read the story independently of both
settings. Yes, it was written in the same period when Beam was still
writing about the Martian origins of Terran civilization in his Paratime
yarns so it might have made sense to think of it in the context of
Paratime then, but by the time he was writing ~Lord Kalvan~ a decade
later Beam himself seemed to no longer believe the "Martian origins"
concept fit well. . . .
There's nothing remarkable about that,
really. As Beam suggests in his comments in "The Future History," if
he'd have written, say, "The Edge of the Knife" a few years later--after
~Sputnik~ placed his ~Kilroy~ firmly in the realm of alternate
history--he'd likely have written it differently.
So, we can
still enjoy "Genesis," but what's more difficult is offering it as
supporting evidence for the case to make the Terro-human Future History
simply another Paratime timeline. . . .
Cheers,
David
--
"Oh,
my people had many gods. There was Conformity, and Authority, and
Expense Account, and Opinion. And there was Status, whose symbols were
many, and who rode in the great chariot Cadillac, which was almost a god
itself. And there was Atom-bomb, the dread destroyer, who would some
day come to end the world. None were very good gods, and I worshiped
none of them.” - Calvin Morrison (H. Beam Piper), ~Lord Kalvan of
Otherwhen~
~
|
David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-01-2017
01:35 UT
|
~
James "jimmyjoejangles" Romanski wrote:
> But Lord Kalvan takes place in
> between Temple Trouble and
> Last Enemy with Time Crime
> being the last chronologically.
The
internal chronology isn't what's important here. What matters is that
the last time he wrote a Paratime yarn--returning to the setting in
~Lord Kalvan~ some eight years after his most recent previous Paratime
yarn ("Time Crime")--Beam decided to specifically abandon the Martian
origins of Terran civilization.
In the intervening years he had
written the bulk of his Terro-human Future history yarns, including both
"Omnilingual" and "When in the Course--." We may not know _why_ Beam
decided that the "Martian origins" idea no longer worked for Paratime
but it's clear he _did_ decide that.
I wouldn't want to ignore
~Lord Kalvan~ in order to imagine a connection between Paratime and the
Terro-human Future History based upon an idea that Beam himself had
abandoned. . . .
Hostigos!
David
--
"Fourth Level
was the big one. The others had devolved from low-probability genetic
accidents; it was the maximum probability." - H. Beam Piper, ~Lord
Kalvan of Otherwhen~
~
|
|
|
New Topic
My Topics
Views:
35310
(Unique:
9358
) / Subscribers:
27 | What's this?