David "PiperFan" Johnson  09-28-2015
14:55 UT
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"Double-Bill" Symposium--which includes Piper interview--now on eBay:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/121772200705
(I'm not the seller for this one.)
Good luck,
David
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David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-27-2015
22:20 UT
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More Piper items, including original hardcovers, posted on eBay:
http://www.ebay.ca/sch/dodavehu1/m.html?_kw=beam+piper
Good luck,
David
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David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-22-2015
00:33 UT
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I have two original Piper hardcover editions "priced to sell" up for auction at eBay:
http://www.ebay.ca/sch/dodavehu1/m.html?_kw=beam+piper
Good luck,
David
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Jonathan Crocker
09-14-2015
04:01 UT
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That cover of "Cosmic Computer" always makes me smile - I was in a used
book store in a part of town I didn't get to very often, looking for
something else, and I had a quick look to see if they had any Piper
books I didn't. Usually, places didn't, but this time, they did! A
copy of Cosmic Computer with that cover.
The store gave me a
scare when they said that they had to "look up the price online" since
the price tag had come off, and asked if I still wanted it at something
like two dollars and twenty-five cents. Well, okay.
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David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-14-2015
02:10 UT
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I've put several more Piper items up for auction at eBay:
http://www.ebay.ca/sch/dodavehu1/m.html?_kw=beam+piper
Good luck,
David
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David Sooby
09-10-2015
08:49 UT
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David Johnson said:
> One thing I think we can all agree upon is that there must have been a _lot_ of "wasted space" on any
> of the myriad of spherical ships we see in the Federation and Empire eras. Presumably the shipwrights
> did their best to fill those spaces with water or other necessary fluids but in the end many of them
> must have ended up as some sort of "art project" undertaken by bored crew-members during the long
> voyages through hyperspace. . . .
I
envisioned the crew rigging a vollyball or badminton net underneath the
spherical shuttle, and playing games in the wasted space between that
and the hull. Only problem I see there is, in a case where a pinnace
must be launched quickly, making sure that the berth is clear of
personnel before opening the hatch.
We could envision more
elaborate setups for using the space for recreation, such as installing a
bowling alley on the inside of the hatch cover itself. That may be
deemed to add too much weight, but I could easily envision multiple
tennis or badminton courts being set up there.
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David Sooby
09-10-2015
08:29 UT
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Jonathan Crocker asked:
> But are the big hyperships spherical because they are hyperships? Or because that's the best way
> to make gravity?
Not
only the best way to make gravity; perfectly spherical is the best
shape for various purposes. Consider: The hyperfield which propels the
ship in hyperspace is almost certainly radiated in a spherical shape. If
hyperships were any shape other than perfectly spherical, they would
require more powerful Dillingham generators and pseudograv generators,
to be able to cover all areas of the ship. That means more power would
be required, hence higher operating costs.
Also, a sphere has the
most advantageous surface-to-volume ratio, if the objective is to
minimize surface area. This makes covering the ship's hull with
collapsium less expensive, and has other benefits such as minimizing the
cross-section of the ship when targeted by an enemy which might shoot
at it from literally any direction.
> The only clue I could find was in Cosmic Computer, bottom of page 114 of the 1963 version, where they
> find the frame of a hypership that had been under construction when the war ended. "She had all of her
> collapsium on, except for a hundred-foot circle at the top and a number of rectangular openings around
> the sides. Yves Jacquemont said that would be where the airlocks would go."
>
> If the standard pinnace is two hundred feet at this time, the "circle at the top" would be too small
> for a sphere, a cigar shape could still treat it as a "missile silo" type arrangement but that doesn't
> seem too likely. So the pinnaces could still be round, but they'd have to dock in the rectangular
> airlocks of unspecified size.
Contrariwise, SPACE VIKING mentions at one point a pinnace berth hatch which had come askew during battle.
I'll point out that you've made two assumptions:
1. That all capital ships have pinnace berths.
2. That on the ship under construction, the pinnace berths had not already had their armored hatch covers installed.
If
either of these is not true, then your citation isn't any evidence of a
pinnace's shape. In fact, I don't think it's reasonable to assume that a
200 foot pinnace would enter through an "airlock". There may be a
hanger bay, or there may be a berth specifically made to hold a pinnace
of an exact shape and size. Or actually multiple berths, since SPACE
VIKING specifies at least two battleships have... I forget, either three
or four pinnaces apiece. Since there is no reference to any hanger bay
on any ship, and SPACE VIKING does specify a pinnace berth, I'm
assuming that's the standard for capital ships which carry pinnaces.
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David Sooby
09-10-2015
08:10 UT
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David Johnson said:
> But if they're _hyperships_ then they're most likely _spherical_ just like the larger hyperships.
> Indeed, Beam is consistent in his portrayal of hyperships throughout the Federation and Empire
> eras as being spherical. Those delta-shaped, pseudo-aerodynamical ships in Whelan's illustration
> can't be pinnaces because pinnaces are _spherical_.
We just had a long argument about this... was that on the Piper-Worlds e-mail list?
Anyway,
I agree with you. Altho I can't find anywhere that the Canon absolutely
specifies the pinnaces are spherical, they are described in the same
terms as the larger ships -- i.e., "a two thousand foot battleship" and
"a 200-foot pinnace", never "a 200 foot long pinnace" -- and I did spot
one place in SPACE VIKING where it describes a pinnace's landing legs
unfolding as it came down to land, again exactly like a larger
hypership.
Others argue for a modified block shape (like the
Classic Star Trek shuttles) or even a cone-shaped pinnace. But they
cannot point to anything in the canon to support such an idea.
The
only instance we have of a deep space ship which is described as -not-
being spherical is the /Harriet Barnes/ in THE COSMIC COMPUTER. It is
specified that this jury-rigged ship does not have artificial gravity;
that it uses constant acceleration as a replacement. Those defending the
idea of the cone-shaped pinnace have pointed out, correctly I think,
that you could put the pseudograv generator at the tip of the cone, and
achieve the same effect as putting the generator at the center of the
"onion" on capital ships. But again, there's nothing in the Canon you
can point to, to support the idea that this is what Piper intended.
The
idea that pinnaces have a slightly streamlined block shape, like
Classic Star Trek shuttles, is not supportable, because that shape does
not lend itself to artificial gravity as it works in the Piperverse. And
since pinnaces can make interstellar voyages just like larger ships, it
seems very nearly mandatory that have artificial gravity.
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David Johnson
09-04-2015
19:22 UT
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Jackson Russell wrote:
> I recall rteading somewhere that shuttles are egg-shaped.
We
actually see very few "shuttle" type craft. Perhaps you're remembering
the single-person air cavalry mounts (which are contragravity vehicles,
not spacecraft).
> Spherical may not be as workable.
Consider, you are sending out smaller craft to harass the enemy. It
needs to be fast and maneuverable. If it is smaller than 200 ft., the
internal gravity matrix might take up too much space and might need to
be dispensed with.
Well, it's not clear the pinnaces are
primarily combat vehicles--indeed, they are used more like interstellar
"shuttles--but the best feature to have in a highly-maneuverable
spacecraft would be a pseudogravity field which presumably could
accommodate the internal inertial forces which come with
high-maneuverability.
> A flat internal plane would allow
better working conditions for the personnel inside, easier to move about
without a constant curve obscuring your view of the others and the
equipment,
Won't argue with you in an abstract sense but
what the experience of the converted ~Harriet Barne~ suggests is that
that sort of spaceship design seems very odd to Federation era folks.
Jumping!
David
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Gilmoure
09-04-2015
16:22 UT
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Ok, now I'm picturing one of those disk shooter guns of the '70s, scaled
up to shoot out "flying saucer" pinnaces. May be time to learn how to
draw space ships.
Gilmoure
On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 8:47 AM, QT - Jackson Russell <
qtopic-42-tnfVKeAH3s4T@quicktopic.com> wrote:
>
--
G
< replied-to message removed by QT >
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Jackson Russell
09-04-2015
15:47 UT
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I recall rteading somewhere that shuttles are egg-shaped. I suspect
pinnaces would also be, depending on the size of the craft. Spherical
may not be as workable. Consider, you are sending out smaller craft to
harass the enemy. It needs to be fast and maneuverable. If it is
smaller than 200 ft., the internal gravity matrix might take up too
much space and might need to be dispensed with. No gravity, no need
for the big ball shape where gravity radiates outward from the center.
A flat internal plane would allow better working conditions for the
personnel inside, easier to move about without a constant curve
obscuring your view of the others and the equipment, It would be
stripped down for speed and minimally staffed to avoid high casualties.
Also, consider this; a ball is easier to to shoot out of the air
than a Frisbee. A pinnace should be designed to present the minimal
amount of surface area to the enemy.
Jack
< replied-to message removed by QT >
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David Johnson
09-04-2015
15:03 UT
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Jonathan Crocker wrote:
> But are the big hyperships spherical because they are hyperships?
> Or because that's the best way to make gravity?
Oh,
I think it's all about the technology of pseudogravity, which
apparently doesn't exist in a planar, "deck plate" form. You have to
have that "omnidirectional" pseudogravity generator to have artificial
(i.e. non-reaction-based) gravity.
> "She had all of her collapsium on, except for a hundred-foot circle
> at the top and a number of rectangular openings around the sides.
> Yves Jacquemont said that would be where the airlocks would go."
>
> If the standard pinnace is two hundred feet at this time, the "circle
> at the top" would be too small for a sphere, a cigar shape could
> still treat it as a "missile silo" type arrangement but that doesn't
> seem too likely. So the pinnaces could still be round, but they'd
> have to dock in the rectangular airlocks of unspecified size.
When
a ship like ~Nemesis~ attacks a planet, disgorging all sorts of
different, combat craft on its way down from orbit, you can bet they're
not all launching out of that "circle at the top" (which after all is a
construction hatch that presumably will be closed-up upon final
assembly) or those airlocks. This suggests either that the ship at Port
Carpenter wasn't a combat ship--or else that the bay hatches for its
combat craft--and perhaps even some small interplanetary or
hyperships--were already installed.
> You could argue for the spheres, but you'd end up with a lot more
> 'waste space' around an internal bay for a spherical pinnace, and
> I'm sure the starship architects would hate those little fiddly bits
> where the curves met.
And
how! One thing I think we can all agree upon is that there must have
been a _lot_ of "wasted space" on any of the myriad of spherical ships
we see in the Federation and Empire eras. Presumably the shipwrights
did their best to fill those spaces with water or other necessary fluids
but in the end many of them must have ended up as some sort of "art
project" undertaken by bored crew-members during the long voyages
through hyperspace. . . .
Jumping!
David
--
"As
to Heisenberg compensators . . . I'd rather rely on reversing the
polarity of the neutron flow." - Tom Rogers, H. Beam Piper Mailing List
and Discussion Forum, July 15, 2015
~
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Jonathan Crocker
09-04-2015
06:28 UT
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But are the big hyperships spherical because they are hyperships? Or because that's the best way to make gravity?
I
admit, since my first reading of Space Viking as a kid, I'd always
thought of the pinnaces as something that looked like a big cigar. But
after a quick skim of a couple places in the book, from the given
minimal description, they could be spheres, just like their motherships.
The only clue I could find was in Cosmic Computer, bottom of
page 114 of the 1963 version, where they find the frame of a hypership
that had been under construction when the war ended. "She had all of
her collapsium on, except for a hundred-foot circle at the top and a
number of rectangular openings around the sides. Yves Jacquemont said
that would be where the airlocks would go."
If the standard
pinnace is two hundred feet at this time, the "circle at the top" would
be too small for a sphere, a cigar shape could still treat it as a
"missile silo" type arrangement but that doesn't seem too likely. So
the pinnaces could still be round, but they'd have to dock in the
rectangular airlocks of unspecified size.
I'm going to stick with
the cigar shape for the pinnaces in my own mind. You could argue for
the spheres, but you'd end up with a lot more 'waste space' around an
internal bay for a spherical pinnace, and I'm sure the starship
architects would hate those little fiddly bits where the curves met.
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David Johnson
09-04-2015
05:12 UT
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Jackson Russell wrote:
> Presumably, shuttles nest on the out levels like a fly on a ball,
> rise up through the bay doors then reorient themselves.
Here's
an interesting thought-exercise. Consider the pinnaces Beam tells us
about in ~Space Viking~. They are smaller _hyperships_ which are
carried by larger hyperships like ~Nemesis~ or ~Enterprise~. Now,
probably in no small part thanks to Michael Whelan's iconic cover
illustration for the second Ace edition of ~Viking~, I had assumed for
years that these pinnaces were some sort of "traditional,"
pseudo-aerodynamical design like those smaller spacecraft Whelan shows
us flying near ~Nemesis~.
But if they're _hyperships_ then
they're most likely _spherical_ just like the larger hyperships.
Indeed, Beam is consistent in his portrayal of hyperships throughout the
Federation and Empire eras as being spherical. Those delta-shaped,
pseudo-aerodynamical ships in Whelan's illustration can't be pinnaces
because pinnaces are _spherical_.
This also suggests some
interesting things about how the pinnaces must be berthed in the larger
hyperships. Again, I think Jackson has the essential imagery
correct--except they may not need to "reorient" themselves once clear of
the larger ship's bay.
Jumping!
David
--
"Let's see yours. Draw--soul! Inspection--soul!" - Foxx Travis (H. Beam Piper), "Oomphel in the Sky"
~
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