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Jonathan Crocker
02-23-2012
18:42 UT
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The site looks great, David!
In other news, I did find this interesting -
http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/20...ight-neutrinos.html
It
seems that they didn't find ftl particles after all. Alternately, we
have seen an example of how effective the Paracops are at diverting
attention. It is left to the reader to decide!
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David Johnson
02-21-2012
13:09 UT
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~
Tim Tow wrote:
> Thanks. I wonder if this comment is now a bit dated with the
> changes in technology. We may be coming up with new forms of
> government in this information age that are undreamt of during
> Renaissance times.
Interesting question, but off-topic for this forum.
What
we do know is that Beam ignored Harkaman's (and Pareto's?) observation
himself. What, for example, is the historical precedent for the
governance system that gives something like the industrial Barony of
Karvallmills?
Or what of the Merlinolators who hoped to create a
government run by the Cosmic Computer? And, indeed, what is the
historical model for the "Maxwell Plan"--and eventual "Merlin
Plan"--instituted on Poicstesme in the aftermath of the discovery--and
"falsification"--of Merlin?
And, more interestingly, whatever
became of this "governance guided by super computer"? Perhaps if
Harkaman had known he might have had a different opinion!
David
--
"Good things in the long run are often tough while they're happening." - Otto Harkaman (H. Beam Piper), _Space_Viking_
~
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Tim Tow
02-21-2012
12:38 UT
|
>Ah, here it is, from John's Introduction to ~Federation~:
"Vilfredo
Pareto, a famous mid-twentieth century Italian sociologist, once made a
very similar statement [to Harkaman's in ~Viking~]; almost every known
form of government or political-science possibility existed at one time
or another among the Italian city-states of the Renaissance."
Thanks.
I wonder if this comment is now a bit dated with the changes in
technology. We may be coming up with new forms of government in this
information age that are undreamt of during Renaissance times.
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David Johnson
02-21-2012
01:42 UT
|
~
Mike Robertson wrote:
> I think the reference to all types of governments being found in
> Italy during the Rennaisance came from a historian John Carr was
> quoting in the forward to Federation. I don't have my copy
> handy but that's what I recall.
Ah, here it is, from John's Introduction to ~Federation~:
"Vilfredo
Pareto, a famous mid-twentieth century Italian sociologist, once made a
very similar statement [to Harkaman's in ~Viking~]; almost every known
form of government or political-science possibility existed at one time
or another among the Italian city-states of the Renaissance."
David
--
"You
know, it's never a mistake to take a second look at anything that
everybody believes." - Rodney Maxwell (H. Beam Piper), "Graveyard of
Dreams"
~
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Mike Robertson
02-20-2012
23:47 UT
|
I think the reference to all types of governments being found in Italy
during the Rennaisance came from a historian John Carr was quoting in
the forward to Federation. I don't have my copy handy but that's what I
recall.
|
David "PiperFan" Johnson  02-20-2012
15:09 UT
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~
Tim Tow wrote:
> I'm wondering if this is one of the
> historical concepts that Piper originated. Joe Haldeman's
> Confederacion universe also postulates a world where the
> Northern Hemisphere duked it out with nuclear weapons, leaving
> the Southern Hemisphere to lead the race into space.
I've
no idea if Beam influenced Haldeman's work but it wasn't a great leap
to get from an American-Russian nuclear standoff to the destruction of
civilization in the Northern Hemisphere--and possible survivors in the
Southern Hemisphere. (Consider Nevil Shute's ~On the Beach~, published
in 1957.) Beam may have drawn a lot of his ideas from ideas already
prevalent in his contemporary culture. Consider this "Operation Triple
Cross"-like scenario from a 1948 issue of ~Collier's~ (which Beam might
have seen):
http://www.zarthani.net/Images/rocket_blitz.pdf
> On another note, I recall in one Piper story a reference that
> all types of governments from dictatorship to absolute democracy
> were tried at least once in the Italian city states during the
> Renaissance. Does anyone remember which story that was?
I
don't recall that specific reference but we do have this from ~Space
Viking~, Harkaman explaning to Trask, "I study history. You know, it's
odd; practically everything that's happened on any of the inhabited
planets happened on Terra before the first spaceship."
(Thanks for the kind words too.)
David
--
"I
hope I've made the point, without over-making it, that the proletariat
aren't good and virtuous, only stupid, weak and incompetent." - H. Beam
Piper (on "A Slave is a Slave")
~
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Tim Tow
02-20-2012
13:31 UT
|
Great work, David. I'm wondering if this is one of the historical
concepts that Piper originated. Joe Haldeman's Confederacion universe
also postulates a world where the Northern Hemisphere duked it out with
nuclear weapons, leaving the Southern Hemisphere to lead the race into
space.
On another note, I recall in one Piper story a reference
that all types of governments from dictatorship to absolute democracy
were tried at least once in the Italian city states during the
Renaissance. Does anyone remember which story that was?
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David Johnson
02-19-2012
05:46 UT
|
~
Gordon Johansen wrote:
> I presume the maps are upside down to represent the end result
> of the Southern hemisphere being in charge of things?
Which, therefore, would not be "upside down" to a Federation-era Terro-human! ;)
Thanks for the kind words.
David
--
"You
know, most of the wars they've been fighting, lately, on the
Europo-American Sector have been, at least in part, motivated by rivalry
for oil fields." - H. Beam Piper, "Temple Trouble," 1951 ~
|
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Gordon Johansen
02-18-2012
17:08 UT
|
Nicely done David. You should put it on Wikipedia and see if it gets approved as real history. It would be funny if it did.
I presume the maps are upside down to represent the end result of the Southern hemisphere being in charge of things?
Gord
--
Gordon Johansen
The Sentry Box (the World's Largest Game Store)
Calgary, AB
QT - David PiperFan Johnson wrote:
< replied-to message removed by QT >
|
David "PiperFan" Johnson 02-18-2012
16:49 UT
|
~
From ("old" UN to) "First" Federation to "Second" Terran Federation
I've
been working on a little project that attempts to document the
transition from the "first" Terran Federation to the "second" Terran
Federation. It's now available at Zarthani.net here:
http://www.zarthani.net/terra_many_nations_one_planet.pdf
This is part of a much larger effort outlined here:
http://www.zarthani.net/future_history_federation_history.htm
These
documents will be written from a perspective based in the early
Galactic Empire era (and of course presume a divergence from our actual
history sometime in the late 1950s when Beam was writing most of his
Terro-human Future History yarns).
Enjoy,
David
--
"It
would be natural for me to supply details for the future. But . . . a
lot of this stuff is based on unpredictable and arbitrary factors that
can't be inferred from anything in the present." - Edward Chalmers (H.
Beam Piper), "The Edge of the Knife"
~
|
David "PiperFan" Johnson 02-13-2012
02:47 UT
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~
Jonathan Crocker wrote:
> the "wreathed globe of the
> federation" - pretty similar to the wreathed globe of the UN.
> It sounds like at least that much of symbolism of the UN was
> utilized by the Federation.
Yes,
we see the "wreathed globe" emblem in both ~Uller Uprising~
(1952)--Beam's first Future History yarn--and in "Graveyard of Dreams"
(1958). The "Graveyard" emblem even rests on a field of UN light blue.
But Beam dumped the UN-like Federation motif when he rewrote "Graveyard
of Dreams" as ~The Cosmic Computer~ (originally issued as ~Junkyard
Planet~, 1963) without substituting new livery for the Federation.
No
other specific Federation motif is portrayed in yarns written after
"Graveyard" so there'd be no contradiction with canon if we assumed that
the UN-like livery survived throughout the Federation era but it seems
clear that Beam was having second thoughts about the UN linkage by the
time he was (re)writing ~Computer~.
Remember Ashmodai! Remember Belphegor!
David
--
"You
either went on to the inevitable catastrophe, or you realized, in time,
that nuclear armament and nationalism cannot exist together on the same
planet, and it is easier to banish a habit of thought than a piece of
knowledge." - H. Beam Piper, ~Uller Uprising~
~
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Jonathan Crocker
02-12-2012
22:22 UT
|
I think I remember a couple of different instances of characters in
different stories describing the "wreathed globe of the federation" -
pretty similar to the wreathed globe of the UN. It sounds like at least
that much of symbolism of the UN was utilized by the Federation.
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Spam deleted by QuickTopic 08-28-2016 06:07
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Jackson Russell
02-04-2012
02:15 UT
|
Null ABC also known as Crisis in 2140 is considered by some to be one of
Piper's lesser works. However, it does speak to the slow degeneration
of literacy in our own world. Kids would rather play on the xBox than
read a book. Television, video games, movies...nobody wants to read
anymore. I think Piper was on to something with this story.
Jack
< replied-to message removed by QT >
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David "PiperFan" Johnson 02-04-2012
02:01 UT
|
~
Tim Tow wrote:
>Just read Null-ABC myself yesterday. Does it fit in the
>Terro-Human Future History?
Nope. It's a stand-alone work (like each of Beam's collaborations with McGuire).
Drink Evri-flave!
David
--
"Do
you know which books to study, and which ones not to bother with? Or
which ones to read first, so that what you read in the others will be
comprehensible to you? That's what they'll give you [at university]. The
tools, which you don't have now, for educating yourself." - Bish Ware
(H. Beam Piper), ~Four-Day Planet~
~
|
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Tim Tow
02-02-2012
14:59 UT
|
> I think that's a misprint. According to the original, it should read "Naudsonce" Or was it a somewhat appropriate alternate title? :) Just
read Null-ABC myself yesterday. Interesting read and actually
applicable to today as well as when it was written. Does it fit in the
Terro-Human Future History (TFH) chronology? It typically wasn't listed as a TFH story. Edited 02-02-2012 15:00
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David Johnson
02-01-2012
19:16 UT
|
~
Jonathan Crocker wrote:
>Or to rephrase the question, if you had half an hour to read
>something by Piper, would you pick Null-ABC over anything else?
Only over "Day of the Moron." (And I can't _stand_ "Moron.") Even then, it might be a wash.
Others' MMV, of course.
Drink Evri-flave!
David
~
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Jonathan Crocker
02-01-2012
19:00 UT
|
I was on the Project Gutenburg site the other day, finding a couple of
good Piper stories to recommend to a friend who has a new ebook machine,
and I noticed they have Null-ABC.
Now, a few years ago someone
mentioned that it really was not worth tracking down a hardcopy of that
story, since it was not that good.
But now it is available online and for free, is it worth it?
Or to rephrase the question, if you had half an hour to read something by Piper, would you pick Null-ABC over anything else?
|
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David Johnson
02-01-2012
13:15 UT
|
~
Tim Tow wrote:
> In the publishing records, there is a record of a sale of
> Mudstones to Astounding Science Fiction in 1961. I've never seen
> or heard of this story. What is this story and has it every been
> reprinted?
I think that's a misprint. According to the original, it should read "Naudsonce"
http://www.zarthani.net/Images/piper_sales.pdf
Down Styphon!
David
--
"You
know any kind of observation that doesn't contaminate the thing
observed, professor?" - Tortha Karf (H. Beam Piper),
_Lord_Kalvan_of_Otherwhen_ ~
|
Tim Tow 02-01-2012
12:30 UT
|
I finally finished John Carr's excellent biography of H. Beam Piper. I had couple of questions. In
the publishing records, there is a record of a sale of Mudstones to
Astounding Science Fiction in 1961. I've never seen or heard of this
story. What is this story and has it every been reprinted? While
Piper was in Paris, did he ever visit the the English literature
bookstore, Le Mistral, now more known as Shakespeare & Company or
encounter any of the American Beat authors that were in Paris around the
same time? It appears Piper may have just missed Allan Ginsburg and
William Burroughs, who arrived in Paris in 1957. Perhaps on another timeline, he ran into this American author community and stayed happily in Paris. Edited 02-01-2012 12:30
|
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