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Spam messages 759-755 deleted by QuickTopic between 12-10-2010 10:56 AM and 01-24-2014 01:09 AM |
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Lensman
11-28-2010
20:28 UT
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On 11/28/2010 2:14 PM, QT - Tom Rogers wrote:
> The problem with text communication (like this
> list) is that much meaningful nuance is lost
Yeah, that's the problem. But no harm, no foul. Or as Miss Emily Litella said: "Nevermind!"
And thanks for your reply.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clear ether!
Lensman
Visit the Incompleat Known Space Concordance at:
http://www.freewebs.com/knownspace/
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Tom Rogers
11-28-2010
20:14 UT
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Lensman:
I certainly didn't/don't take your post as being overly
skeptical, nor is it in any way objectionable. My reply to the list was
simply a statement of factual confirmation as to the nature of the two
carbon manuscripts. I was not responding to your post specifically, so
if you took it as such then I apologize to you! The problem with text
communication (like this list) is that much meaningful nuance is lost,
or at best is poorly communicated - my post was meant to be simple, dry
and factual, without any real depth, and not as a direct reply to
anyone's particular post. I believe that your question was clear,
straightforward and thoroughly appropriate.
As to your query
regarding the story's being allegedly re-written to tone down language,
I, too, had heard that tale somewhere in the past. If my memory serves
me (always suspect) I believe this particular "rumor" was fostered in
various fanzine pieces on Piper from the 1970's and 1980's. I'd have to
check my fanzine collection, but I am pretty positive that this idea was
floated around along with other mis-information about Piper (e.g. his
real first name, that Betty tried to hold his stuff for ransom after his
death, the nature of his divorce, the burning of Piper's manuscript
archives). If I find anything definitive on this I will let you know.
Tom
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Lensman
11-28-2010
03:25 UT
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On 11/24/2010 8:44 PM, QT - Tom Rogers wrote:
> John is correct and both carbons are indeed the same. Other than
> the carbon folds in the paper, the only differences are in
> Beam's hand-written changes (same changes, just written twice so
> not carbon impressions of one original change), and the
> hand-drawn illustration of the shell casing image (again, drawn
> twice and not a carbon impression of one original drawing). The
> top-carbon copy was obtained from the Robert Yaspan Collection,
> and the bottom-carbon copy, with Beam's original storage box,
> was obtained directly from Mike Knerr via a rare book dealer
> friend (a story in itself).
Based
on responses I received on this subject, it seems that I expressed
more skepticism than I intended, or actually felt, regarding John Carr's
remarks. I am perfectly aware he's the greatest living expert on
Piper-- or at least, if there is anyone who is more of an expert, I
don't know who he is!
I wasn't questioning John's statement that
/Fuzzies and Other People/ was published without change from Piper's
manuscript. Nor was my intention to question the evidence he cited re
the carbons, nor in fact question anything else John wrote. I was just
asking about the origin of what I seem to remember about a rumor that
the manuscript had to be re-written; I was merely trying to establish
whether or not there was *any* truth to what I seem to recall reading
on the subject. It's also possible my memory is playing tricks with
me; it wouldn't be the first time.
At any rate, I have my answer,
and if this came across to anyone as suggesting that what John
originally wrote on the subject was not entirely accurate, then I
apologize.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clear ether!
Lensman
Visit the Incompleat Known Space Concordance at:
http://www.freewebs.com/knownspace/
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David Johnson
11-27-2010
23:37 UT
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~
John Carr has shared a copy of what Alan Gutierrez calls a "color
sketch" of the preliminary cover art for ~The Last Space Viking~.
I've posted it at Zarthani.net here:
http://www.zarthani.net/Images/last_space_viking_sketch.jpg
John
writes, "The final artwork will be different as I've requested some
minor changes, but the overall color scheme and the other major
elements will remain the same. Alan outdid himself on the
_Skull_Splitter_ Space Viking ship!"
I heartily agree. Excellent work, Alan! I can hardly wait to see the final product.
Trask of Tanith!
David
--
"Good things in the long run are often tough while they're
happening." - Otto Harkaman (H. Beam Piper), _Space_Viking_
~
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Jackson Russell
11-27-2010
16:07 UT
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I have to agree. Beam even mentioned that in one instance, even though
the Fuzzies were full, they nibbled at their Extee-Three just to 'be
doing what the Big Ones were doing.' Fuzzy see, Fuzzy do, so to speak.
Jack Russell
< replied-to message removed by QT >
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Jim "Rhino" Sparr  11-27-2010
07:27 UT
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The Fuzzies are portrayed with certain characteristics of human
children, and as any parent here can affirm, kids often pick up from
adults what you don't want them to. Given that, the smoking and cussing
Fuzzies are very realistic. For any bowlderizer who disagrees,
"Sunnabish-go-hell".
BTW, compared to nearly anything Heinlein
wrote from /Stranger/ on, Beam's works are the soul of decency, and
compared to "All you zombies", they're /Pollyanna/. I also remember
some Frazetta Ace covers from the period that were very nearly Vargas.
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Tom Rogers
11-25-2010
02:44 UT
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John is correct and both carbons are indeed the same. Other than the
carbon folds in the paper, the only differences are in Beam's
hand-written changes (same changes, just written twice so not carbon
impressions of one original change), and the hand-drawn illustration of
the shell casing image (again, drawn twice and not a carbon impression
of one original drawing). The top-carbon copy was obtained from the
Robert Yaspan Collection, and the bottom-carbon copy, with Beam's
original storage box, was obtained directly from Mike Knerr via a rare
book dealer friend (a story in itself).
The identical language in both is, in my opinion, far from being "potty language," but to each his (or her) own.
Hope everyone has a happy and healthy Thanksgiving!
Tom
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David Johnson
11-25-2010
02:42 UT
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~
John Carr wrote:
> Once Tom purchased the Knerr carbon copy, which was identical to
> the 'other' carbon as well as the Penn State copy of the Knerr
> carbon I was convinced, for once and for all, that the
> published version of Fuzzies and Other People was as the final
> submission draft and the same one that Beam used for publisher
> submissions through his agent Ken White. Any errors or
> omissions were Piper's alone.
Then
it would seem that by the time he got to ~Other People~ Beam had
decided to correct the reference to the Terran Federation Space
Forces--which other than "Omnilingual," only appears in ~Little Fuzzy~
(and then just one time)--and replace it with the more
consistent Terran Federation Armed Forces.
That
makes good sense, showing a clear demarcation between the Space
Forces of the "first" Federation and the Army, Navy, and Marine Corps
of the "second" Federation.
Yeek!
David
--
"Why Walt
Disney bought the movie rights to ['Rebel Raider'], I've never
figured out. Will Colonel Mosby be played by Mickey Mouse, and General
Phil Sheridan by Donald Duck? It's baffling. However, I was glad to
get the check." - H. Beam Piper
~
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Otherwhen@aol.com
11-24-2010
23:35 UT
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The Ace editor, in charge of the Piper reissues (Beth Meacham) told me
-- and probably others -- that she felt "Fuzzies and Other People"
contained inappropriate Fuzzy language. For example:
"Sunnabish-go-hell" And that there was all kind of potty language, but
remember, that was in Beth's estimation.
She was either
over-ruled by Susan Allison, or someone else at Ace, and the book was
released as written without any attempt to clean up the text.
I
do know that they used the original wording of the Knerr carbon because
I've got photocopies of it. And there are NO substantial changes to
the Fuzzy dialogue or anything else.
So, I wrote the
last post, to set the record straight. If there are any faults with
the book, they are Piper's and not some anonymous rewriters' or
editors'. And, finally, there is no definitive 'lost' submission
manuscript: what we have is the final draft of "Fuzzies and Other
People" as written by H. Beam Piper.
1.) Beam did not
make carbons of his works-in-progress; if, for no other reason, than
he could not afford to purchase the extra paper. He, like Mike Knerr
(who probably learned this trick from Beam), re-used his earlier drafts
by reversing the pages and writing over them. In the diaries, he
mentions being low on paper and how he has to hoard what little he
has.
2.) We now have 2 different distinct original carbon
copies of "Fuzzies and Other People" and both are owned by a
well-known Piper collector. Tom had me authenticate them and they are
both from the same manuscript and display the same typing errors and
type characteristics.
Piper was tired of writing about
the Fuzzies, and according to his diaries, had a hell-of-a-time
writing the sequels. Read my biography, "H. Beam Piper: A Biography"
for more information.
Still, when they bought "Little
Fuzzy," Avon was red-hot on the Fuzzies and his editor, Janet Wood,
had designs on Fuzzy movies and Fuzzy merchandising, none of which --
sadly -- came to pass. When she left Avon, no one was left to champion
them.
Frankly, I'm glad that Ace didn't have Kurland or
someone else rewrite the book. It stands on its own, and -- while it's
not Piper's best work -- it's a decent sequel to the first two books
and gives us a much deeper examination of wild Fuzzies and Fuzzy life
on Zarathustra.
John F. Carr
_www.Hostigos.com_ (http://www.Hostigos.com)
I'm confused here. I thought I had read that the manuscript
discovered for /Fuzzies and Other People/ had inappropriate
Fuzzy dialogue-- Piper having his Fuzzies use obscenities or
otherwise say things inappropriate for the characters or
inappropriate for publishing. As I recall, it was stated that
this showed Piper was tired of writing about Fuzzies. I
thought someone had to re-write the Fuzzy dialogue and otherwise polish what Piper intended to be an intermediary draft, not
something ready for submission to the publisher.
Was this just a story someone made up?
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clear ether!
Lensman
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Jackson Russell
11-24-2010
22:04 UT
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Hmmm...interesting. I never heard that, but Little Fuzzy did have a
mouth on him by the third book. "Sunnabish-go-hell" for example.
Frankly, I thought it was cute. But that was in the 80's when it was
published, but back in the 60s when it was rejected as being too
derivative, that might have been too 'adult' for Ace's taste (which is
really stupid considering what Heinlein was writing by that time.)
Jack Russell
< replied-to message removed by QT >
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Spam deleted by QuickTopic 10-28-2012 07:16
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Jackson Russell
11-24-2010
20:32 UT
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Or Victor Grego changed the name a bit to avoid copyright infringement.
By the third book all the Extee Three was being manufactured locally
and while the recipe patent would have long entered the public domain
(as if anybody would waste money protecting the rights of a so
universally despised product) the brand name would likely still be
protected. Grego is too smart to get nailed on a technicality like
that. Good catch, by the way.
Jack Russell
< replied-to message removed by QT >
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Otherwhen@aol.com
11-24-2010
20:07 UT
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Ever since the publication of Fuzzies and Other People, there have been
questions in regards to whether or not it was based on the final
submission draft of the novel that H. Beam Piper sent to his agent,
Kenneth White, or an earlier draft. I know I raised some of them
myself. Even Mike Knerr, who discovered the carbon copy, was confused
when I asked him about its provenance. He truly believed the carbon
copy he found was a first or second draft; especially since it was in a
typewriter paper box labeled "second pages."
When I
talked about the 'discovery' with Beth Meacham, even she was convinced
that it was not the final draft -- she didn't like what she called
"Fuzzy baby-talk" and said, to me, she was going to get another writer
(I believe Michael Kurland), to clean it up and add a few things. And,
until I actually saw the other 'carbon,' I believed it had been
rewritten.
Tom Rogers, who has the most complete H. Beam Piper
original manuscript collection that I know of personally, has 2
original carbon copies of Fuzzies and Other People. He has the
provenance of one and it was the Knerr carbon that Mike found in the
Piper trunk. The 'other' and first carbon copy he obtained was
probably one of Ken White's submission copies. Both are identical
drafts.
At my request, Tom sent me certain critical pages
of the 'other' carbon (this was before he obtained the Knerr carbon)
and I compared it to the copyedited copy of the Knerr carbon that was
used to typeset Fuzzies and Other People at the Joe Paterno Library in
the Special Collection Piper boxes. There were no apparent
differences (except for the carbon folds from where it was jammed up
in the typewriter platen and the hand-corrections by Piper which were
slightly different as you would expect) between the 'other' carbon and
the Knerr carbon copy of the manuscript. Looking at the edited
publication copy, I could find no editing changes (other than the usual
copyediting changes) between the carbon copy and the publication
copy. I believe this conclusively proved there was no editor meddling
with Fuzzies and Other People, or that a second writer made some
changes, additions and revisions, as was done to Full Cycle.
Once
Tom purchased the Knerr carbon copy, which was identical to the
'other' carbon as well as the Penn State copy of the Knerr carbon I was
convinced, for once and for all, that the published version of
Fuzzies and Other People was as the final submission draft and the
same one that Beam used for publisher submissions through his agent Ken
White. Any errors or omissions were Piper's alone.
John F. Carr
( Of course, we have
no idea if this was Beam changing his mind by the time he got to the second sequel or something done by a subsequent editor of
this once "lost" manuscript.)
Yeek!
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Jon
11-24-2010
20:04 UT
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I'd go for it being a brand name, like a Swiss Army Knife. The
manufacturer had built a good reputation, why chance product
recognition? Or editing error. Edited 11-24-2010 20:05
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David Johnson
11-24-2010
19:16 UT
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~
Jim "Rhino" Sparr writes:
>I'm with Jack on this, I think "Space Forces" would be a logical
>catchall term for the Federation military when talking about the
>entire establishment.
Well,
"Armed Forces" appears (as a proper noun, like "Space Forces") in both
"Oomphel in the Sky" and in ~The Cosmic Computer~, both of which occur
after ~Little Fuzzy~. It also appears in ~Four-Day Planet~, which
occurs _before~ ~Fuzzy~, and it's even used in ~Little Fuzzy~ itself (by
the regular military personnel though not by Holloway).
So, I
suppose you both may be correct. (Interestingly, in ~Fuzzies and Other
People~ the Extee Three is called "Terran Federation Armed Forces
Emergency Ration, Extraterrestrial Type Three," the exact phrase used in
~Little Fuzzy~--except with "Space Forces" replaced by "Armed Forces."
Of course, we have no idea if this was Beam changing his mind by the
time he got to the second sequel or something done by a subsequent
editor of this once "lost" manuscript.)
Yeek!
David
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Jim "Rhino" Sparr 11-24-2010
18:50 UT
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I'm with Jack on this, I think "Space Forces" would be a logical
catchall term for the Federation military when talking about the entire
establishment. "Extee Three" would then represent a Milspec for a
lowest-common-denominator emergency ration uniformly supplied to (and
probably despised equally by) all the component services.
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Jackson Russell
11-24-2010
16:21 UT
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"Space Forces" could be a linguistic relic applied to all the military
forces serving off planet from Terra. Today our own military is
referred to as the "Armed Forces", "Military Forces", etc. The Space
Forces as a distinct entity may be defunct, but the terminology could
easily be repurposed. The Terran Federation Navy and Terran Federation
Marines and Terran Federation Army could easily be called Space Forces
as they are military forces serving in space. What else would you
call them as a catch-all term?
As for the Extee Three, well, if
it is essentially the same ingredients and function as the stuff used
centuries earlier, why change the name? We know that they are still
making the stuff as a couple of CZC employees worked for Odin Dietetics
and Synthetic
Foods (forget which world) and duplicated the recipe in Fuzzy Sapiens.
Little Fuzzy for President!
(He can't do any worse than the last few clowns who held the job.)
Jack Russell
< replied-to message removed by QT >
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David Johnson
11-24-2010
13:03 UT
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~
Terran Federation Space Forces?
The military personnel in
"Omnilingual" are all Terran Federation Space Forces folks. This is
the early, UN-like "first" Federation and there is no mention of the
Federation Army or Space Navy or Space Marines that we see in later
Federation-era works.
The only other mention of the "Space Force"
in any Federation-era yarn is in ~Little Fuzzy~: the first Extee
Three that Jack Holloway feeds to Little Fuzzy is from a carton of
Space Forces "Emergency Rations." ~Fuzzy~, of course, takes place
much later, during the time of the "second," interplanetary--and
interstellar--government- form Federation. Space Navy and Space Marine
Corps personnel play prominent roles in ~Fuzzy~ while there are no
Space _Force_ personnel to be found.
So, how old must that carton of Space Forces rations have been?
~Fuzzy~
takes place six hundred _years_ after "Omnilingual." The Space Navy
(and Federation Army) appear in intermediate yarns like "When in the
Course--" (~150 years after "Omnilingual") and ~Four-Day Planet~ (~200
years after "Omni") and ~Uller Uprising~ (~350 years after "Omni").
So, presumably, the shift from Space Force to Space Navy and Space
Marines and Federation Army must have occurred in the Second Century,
AE, during the transition from "first" Federation to "second."
But could that carton of rations in Jack Holloway's cupboard really have been over half a millennium old?
Yeek!
David
--
"Naturally.
Foxx Travis would expect a soul to be carried in a holster." - Miles
Gilbert (H. Beam Piper), "Oomphel in the Sky"
~
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David Johnson
11-24-2010
05:14 UT
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~
Jim Rhino Sparr wrote:
> Any evidence that Beam was aware of the "Philadelphia
> Experiment" of Navy folklore?
None
that I am aware of. Beam's "Philadelphia Project" of "Edge of the
Knife" and some of the "Hartley" yarns seems to have been modeled on
the Manhattan Project rather than for the apocryphal "Philadelphia
Experiment." While it's unlikely Beam would have known all of this at
the time:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/30/science/30manh.html
it
seems likely that the "Philadelphia Project" was so named for
similarly simple reasons. (Beam often located his yarns--included
even ~Lord Kalvan~, recall--in his native Pennsylvania.)
Down Styphon!
David
--
"You know any kind of observation that doesn't contaminate the thing observed, professor?" - Tortha Karf (H. Beam Piper),
_Lord_Kalvan_of_Otherwhen_
~
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David Johnson
11-24-2010
05:06 UT
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~
Mike Robertson wrote:
> Operation Please Respond was very enjoyable. Glad to see
> another addition to the list.
Thank you--and Jim Sparr--for the kind words and for taking the time to read the story.
David
--
"Good things in the long run are often tough while they're
happening." - Otto Harkaman (H. Beam Piper), _Space_Viking_
~
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Jim "Rhino" Sparr 11-22-2010
05:29 UT
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David,
Good stuff. "The Mercenaries" reminded me of my
contractor days. In Thailand, Pakistan, and Egypt, we had to pitch some
people to the wolves to protect the contracts (for public stupidity,
NOT treason, thank God) so that resonated with great verisimilitude.
You do great rewrites. I appreciate the footnotes.
Any evidence
that Beam was aware of the "Philadelphia Experiment" of Navy folklore? I
know that Heinlein, Asimov, and other sci-fi authors worked at the Navy
Yard during WWII, and that the story spread far enough that some seamen
were afraid of having their ships degaussed. I got that from friends'
fathers "oral histories" as a kid.
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Mike Robertson
11-22-2010
04:23 UT
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David,
Operation Please Respond was very enjoyable. Glad to see another addition to the list.
Mike Robertson
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David Johnson
11-22-2010
00:01 UT
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~
Operation Please Respond
A while back, after I'd completed
my Terro-human Future History "reboot" of Beam's "The Mercenaries,"
John Carr asked me if I thought any of Beam's other non-TFH, sci-fi
yarns might be good candidates for being rewritten as TFH yarns. At
the time I didn't think so but John's question continued to gnaw at
me, eventually prompting me to take a look at "Operation R.S.V.P."
Obviously, the yarn wouldn't work as it was originally written but I
have made an effort and posted the results on the Fan Fiction page at
Zarthani.net:
http://www.zarthani.net/fanfiction.htm
I hope you'll consider reading it and would appreciate hearing your reactions here on the List, or privately by e-mail.
Enjoy,
David
--
"You
know, it's never a mistake to take a second look at anything that
everybody believes." - Rodney Maxwell (H. Beam Piper),
"Graveyard of Dreams"
~
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David Johnson
11-20-2010
22:31 UT
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~
Operation Triple Cross, er . . . Knickerbocker?
I've
recently come across a copy of the October 23, 1948, edition of
~Collier's~ which includes an article by Robert S. Richardson titled
"Rocket Blitz from the Moon":
http://www.zarthani.net/Images/rocket_blitz.pdf
Along
with some marvelous--and chilling--illustrations by Chesley
Bonestell--Richardson's article describes a hypothetical Lunar Base
capable of launching a rocket attack--Operation Knickerbocker--
against
the United States. We have no way to know for certain, of course,
but it seems reasonable that Beam may have read this article and
perhaps used it as a model for the U.S. Lunar Base and Operation
Triple Cross in his 1957 yarn "The Edge of the Knife."
Enjoy,
David
--
"You
either went on to the inevitable catastrophe, or you realized, in
time, that nuclear armament and nationalism cannot exist together on
the same planet, and it is easier to banish a habit of thought than a
piece of knowledge." - H. Beam Piper, _Uller_Uprising_
~
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David Johnson
11-11-2010
06:11 UT
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~
Gilmoure wrote:
> I'm guessing that the initial explorer(s) was a romantic and,
> after naming planet from approved list (it's so beautiful and
> Earth like),
That
may very well be the case. What we don't have about the planet
Baldur is any suggestion that it's anything but "ordinary." No
cloudveil like Gram. No "irrational" rotation period like Fenris.
> he then named their initial settlement after a fav
> city. Could be he was a fan of Dumas
This
is key. At the time Baldur is settled, no one had any personal
experience of "Paris-on-Terra" so it had to have been named for some
sort of nostagic or imagined ideal.
> or was actually of French
> decent but there's so many things that go through a person's
> mind when founding a new city
Beam
leaves us few specifics about Paris-on-Baldur (and about Baldur
itself) but there are reasons elsewhere in the Future History to
suspect that various Northern Hemisphere remnants managed to survive
in Terra's Southern Hemisphere after the devastation of the Atomic
Wars. This may have included French (or at least Francophone) people
in what had been French Equatorial Africa, or in Madagascar, or in
French Polynesia, or even in what had been French Indochina and
perhaps even in Adelie Land in Antarctica (where ~Four-Day Planet's~
Glenn Murell--possibly a French surname--was from).
> it's almost impossible to tell, with what we
> have from Piper.
It's
true we can not know for certain but it seems apparent that an
assumption that Baldur was settled by French cultural minorities does
not conflict with what we have from Beam.
Au revoir,
David
--
"It would be natural for me to supply details for the future.
But
. . . a lot of this stuff is based on unpredictable and arbitrary
factors that can't be inferred from anything in the present." - Edward
Chalmers (H. Beam Piper), "The Edge of the Knife"
~
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Gilmoure
11-10-2010
15:32 UT
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I'm guessing that the initial explorer(s) was a romantic and, after
naming planet from approved list (it's so beautiful and Earth like), he
then named their initial settlement after a fav city. Could be he was a
fan of Dumas or was actually of French decent but there's so many things
that go through a person's mind when founding a new city (based on my
Sid Meier Alpha Centaur game play), it's almost impossible to tell, with
what we have from Piper.
Gilmoure
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 10:47 PM, QT - Jon Crocker <
qtopic-42-tnfVKeAH3s4T@quicktopic.com> wrote:
>
< replied-to message removed by QT >
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11-10-2010
14:52 UT
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Gaaaah! Now I have to defend a French contribution. This sucks. But, as Piper said, and David Johnson used as a tag-line:
"And you know what English is? The result of the efforts of
Norman men-at-arms to make dates with Saxon barmaids. . . ." -
Victor Grego (H. Beam Piper), _Fuzzy_Sapiens_
The
Normans, though originally of Norse origin, spoke French when they
invaded England in 1066. Without the French influence, English would be
more of a Dutch derivative than the confusing mish-mash it is today.
"Stupid French."
Homer Simpson
Jack Russell
< replied-to message removed by QT >
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11-10-2010
14:46 UT
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Not more expedient...cheaper! We paid $11,250,000 plus cancelled their
debt of $3,750,000. $15,000,000 was less expensive than what it would
have cost to fight for it, even though we would have trounced them
quick, especially with Napoleon busy trying to take over Europe.
Still, the English and Spanish had already done the hard work. The
French just tagged along.
BTW, The Eiffel Tower is a monument to rust. Get a tetanus shot before going there.
Jack Russell
< replied-to message removed by QT >
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David Johnson
11-10-2010
06:21 UT
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~
Jon Crocker wrote:
> Hey - in one or two places Piper describes what 'lingua terra'
> was, a mix of english, afrikaans, portugese, and a few other
> languages I don't recall offhand. Was french listed in the mix?
Nope. Just English (Australia, New Zealand, southern Africa),
Afrikaans (South Africa), Portuguese (Brazil), and Spanish (the rest of South America).
French
colonials/refugees in Madagascar, or in Southeast Asia, or perhaps in
Adelie Land in Antarctica (maybe neighboring what's left of the
Americans too) would be a minority in second Terran Federation
civilization. Perhaps they were the sort of "irreconcilable minority-
groups who want to get away from everybody else" mentioned in
"Naudsonce" as as having colonized some of the planets of the
Federation. . . .
Au revoir,
David
--
"And
you know what English is? The result of the efforts of Norman
men-at-arms to make dates with Saxon barmaids. . . ." - Victor Grego
(H. Beam Piper), _Fuzzy_Sapiens_
~
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Jon Crocker 11-10-2010
05:50 UT
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>Historically, the French were not typically discoverers. More like invaders on somebody elses discovery, like Mexico.
Normally
I'm not one to defend the French, but they did do a fair bit of
exploring of North America - Fort St Louis, Acadia, New France [Quebec]
and the Mississippi. They lost big in a couple of wars so really
couldn't make the claims stick, but the US still found it more expedient
to buy the French claims off Napolean - the Louisianna Purchase.
Hey
- in one or two places Piper describes what 'lingua terra' was, a mix
of english, afrikaans, portugese, and a few other languages I don't
recall offhand. Was french listed in the mix?
Maybe "Paris-on-Baldur" was the name bestowed by a sneaky Tourism Board? You know, truth in advertising, like "Greenland"?
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David Johnson
11-10-2010
03:53 UT
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~
Lensman wrote:
> I'd say it's more like cities in the New World of the Americas
> being named "Arcadia", "Athens", "Atlanta", "Memphis" and
> "Olympia". The fact that the original Athens and Memphis still
> exist has, I think, little or nothing to do with the
> mythological meanings associated with the names.
I could see that.
Au revoir,
David
--
"Why,
here on Odin there hadn't been an election in the past six centuries
that hadn't been utterly fraudulent. Nobody voted except the
nonworkers, whose votes were bought and sold wholesale, by
gangster
bosses to pressure groups, and no decent person would be caught
within a hundred yards of a polling place on an election day." -
Emperor Paul XXII (H. Beam Piper), "Ministry of Disturbance"
~
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Lensman
11-09-2010
20:02 UT
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On 11/9/2010 2:42 PM, QT - David Johnson wrote:
>> is easy to imagine some group wanting to name cities after
>> famous Terran ones. It wouldn't even have to be a Frenchman
>> doing it.
>
> But would Paris still be a "famous Terran city" hundreds of years
> after its destruction if no enclave of French people surivived the
> Atomic Wars? It would be like Gauls naming a new settlement
> "Carthage."
I'd
say it's more like cities in the New World of the Americas being named
"Arcadia", "Athens", "Atlanta", "Memphis" and "Olympia". The fact that
the original Athens and Memphis still exist has, I think, little or
nothing to do with the mythological meanings associated with the names.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clear ether!
Lensman
Visit the Incompleat Known Space Concordance at:
http://www.freewebs.com/knownspace/
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David Johnson
11-09-2010
19:42 UT
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~
Jack Russell writes:
>However,
>once the planet was named and colonists started flocking in, it
>is easy to imagine some group wanting to name cities after
>famous Terran ones. It wouldn't even have to be a Frenchman
>doing it.
But
would Paris still be a "famous Terran city" hundreds of years after its
destruction if no enclave of French people surivived the Atomic Wars?
It would be like Gauls naming a new settlement "Carthage."
>Of course, the Paris in question could also have
>been named for the Trojan in Homer's Iliad.
Given
the framing "Paris-on-Baldur" I don't think this is the case. Whomever
named the city must have been trying to distinguish it from
"Paris-on-Terra."
>Finally, Piper made it clear that by the time we got out in
>space the races were so crossbred that when somebody resembled
>his surname it was merely a coincidence. EVERYBODY was made up
>of multiple races. So a little French here and there was
>likely a part of any group.
Well,
only if it survived the destruction of France during the Atomic Wars.
Sure, we have Paula Quinton in _Uller_Uprising_ mentioning her French
(Vichy collaborator) ancestry but she hardly considered herself to be
French. (Just as an African Roman might be descended from Hannibal but
would not consider herself to be Carthaginian.)
No, I think there
must have been some enclave of Frenchmen--in Madagascar, in Southeast
Asia, in Ad&#E9;lie Land--who survive the Atomic Wars and go on to
launch an expedition that discovers and settles Baldur.
Au revoir,
David
~
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David Johnson
11-09-2010
19:28 UT
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~
--
David "Lensman" Sooby writes:
>I suppose legendary figures such as Charlemange and Roland are
>too recent, too close to real history, to have been elevated to
>deities.
True,
during the early period of Federation settlement when world names were
restricted to non-Greco-Roman deities. On the other hand, by the time
Genji Gartner was naming the world he discovered "Poictesme" there may
have been more than one world with a name take from the _Chanson_.
Au revoir,
David
--
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11-09-2010
16:52 UT
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Typically, whoever finds the planet first gets to name it.
Historically, the French were not typically discoverers. More like
invaders on somebody elses discovery, like Mexico. The 1066 invasions
of England were by the descendants of Norsemen who settled in Normandy,
so they don't count, either. However, once the planet was named and
colonists started flocking in, it is easy to imagine some group wanting
to name cities after famous Terran ones. It wouldn't even have to be a
Frenchman doing it. Of course, the Paris in question could also have
been named for the Trojan in Homer's Iliad.
Finally, Piper made
it clear that by the time we got out in space the races were so
crossbred that when somebody resembled his surname it was merely a
coincidence. EVERYBODY was made up of multiple races. So a little
French here and there was likely a part of any group.
Jack Russell
< replied-to message removed by QT >
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Lensman
11-09-2010
16:26 UT
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On 11/9/2010 7:53 AM, QT - David Johnson wrote:
> Well, Norse mythology seemed the preferred source material of Terran
> explorers of the time (and clearly any "ci-devant" Frenchman would
> actually be an amalgam of French culture and various Southern
> Hemisphere cultures) but what French mythological source might they
> otherwise use? Don't you have to get down to the bottom of the
> barrel where you're coming up with names like "Santovit" before you
> get to any Gallic deities?
I
suppose legendary figures such as Charlemange and Roland are too
recent, too close to real history, to have been elevated to deities.
Back when the oral tradition ruled, it was easier for each generation's
retelling to gradually elevate a hero to a demi-god, then a god.
Increasing literacy has caused our legends to have been fixed in
unchanging printed form before they became outright myth.
But there's always Asterix the Gaul!
:D
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clear ether!
Lensman
Visit the Incompleat Known Space Concordance at:
http://www.freewebs.com/knownspace/
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David Johnson
11-09-2010
12:53 UT
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~
Jon Crocker wrote:
> Some memory of the French did survive, I think - in the third
> fuzzy book, one of the 'forest-fire fuzzies' was asked to
> explain something and gave a shrug that 'an old Terran Frenchman
> couldn't have done better' or words to that effect.
Ah,
yes: "Wise One shrugged; an Old Terran Frenchman couldn't have done
it better." It's not clear in context whether this is the narrator's
point-of-view or Victor Grego's, but if the latter how on earth--or
Zarathustra--would Grego have any idea how an "old Terran Frenchman"
shrugged? It would have to be some caricature of a
fictional Frenchman that survived in the vids or something. . . .
But
to your point this makes clear that some semblance of French culture
and society survived the destruction of France in the Atomic Wars.
> But I doubt the French named Baldur, why would they pick a Norse
> god?
Well,
Norse mythology seemed the preferred source material of Terran
explorers of the time (and clearly any "ci-devant" Frenchman would
actually be an amalgam of French culture and various Southern
Hemisphere
cultures) but what French mythological source might they otherwise
use? Don't you have to get down to the bottom of the barrel where
you're coming up with names like "Santovit" before you get to any
Gallic deities?
Au revoir,
David
--
"It would be natural for me to supply details for the future.
But
. . . a lot of this stuff is based on unpredictable and arbitrary
factors that can't be inferred from anything in the present." - Edward
Chalmers (H. Beam Piper), "The Edge of the Knife"
~
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Jon Crocker 11-09-2010
05:47 UT
|
Maybe it was Marines - the editor always left out the second 'r' in Parris? :)
Some
memory of the French did survive, I think - in the third fuzzy book,
one of the 'forest-fire fuzzies' was asked to explain something and gave
a shrug that 'an old Terran Frenchman couldn't have done better' or
words to that effect.
But I doubt the French named Baldur, why would they pick a Norse god?
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David Johnson
11-07-2010
02:09 UT
|
~
Who settled Baldur?
In three Terrohuman Future History yarns
(~Four-Day Planet~, ~The Cosmic Computer~, and "A Slave is a Slave")
the primary city on Baldur is called "Paris-on-Baldur." What was Beam
signalling here?
Paris--along with the rest of France--was
destroyed in the Atomic Wars. Did the French government--or at least
some French colonials-- survive the destruction of civilization in
Terra's Northern
Hemisphere, perhaps in the French colonies in
Africa or Southeast Asia (most of which were just gaining their
independence at the time Beam was writing)?
And did descendants
of these these "ci-devant" Frenchmen make their way out from Terra's
Southern Hemisphere at some point to settle Baldur, a world perhaps
named for the quality of rebirth associated with the god Baldur? Does
French civilization enjoy a sort of
renaissance on Baldur in the Federation era (and, given the reference in "Slave," perhaps even endure into the Empire era)?
Au revoir,
David
--
"You
know, it's never a mistake to take a second look at anything that
everybody believes." - Rodney Maxwell (H. Beam Piper),
"Graveyard of Dreams"
~
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David Johnson
11-07-2010
00:48 UT
|
~
John F. Carr wrote:
> I am currently working on a sequel to Space Viking, but not the
> one I wrote with Jerry.... The new book will take place roughly
> a century after the original novel; the unpublished sequel,
> "Space Vikings Return," I worked on with Jerry Pournelle was
> set some 25 years after the Space Viking.
This is great news, John! Great to see you (re)turning to the
Terrohuman Future History.
> In conjunction with the new novel, I will be reprinting the
> original Space Viking. So I thought I'd query the members of
> the List and ask you to bring any long-standing errors to my
> attention so that I can correct them in the new hardcover
> edition. I'd like to make this the definitive edition with a
> chronology and some other extras.
When
the _Space_Scourge_ returns from Gram, Valkanhayn says Harkaman is an
Admiral in the "Royal Mardukan Navy." That's obviously an error
(which the Project Gutenberg editors corrected to "Royal Navy of
Gram").
> Alan Gutierrez is currently working on the new cover. If anyone
> has any ideas or corrections they'd like to suggest, this is
> the time to sound out.
Schoenherr's cover for the original _Analog_ serialization is
archetypal:
http://www.zarthani.net/Images/spacevik62a.jpg
Whelan did a great job too on the Ace paperback.
What might be cool is something showing the fallen--and being
rebuilt--towers at Rivington on Tanith (with ~Nemesis~ and/or
~Corsiande II~ on approach/departure at the spaceport).
Trask of Tanith!
David
--
"Good things in the long run are often tough while they're
happening." - Otto Harkaman (H. Beam Piper), _Space_Viking_
~
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Otherwhen@aol.com
11-05-2010
22:56 UT
|
Sorry, but "Space Vikings Return" is still in limbo. Unfortunately, it's out of my hands....
This
is one reason I'm doing a new but completely different book on the
Space Vikings. This one takes place about a hundred years after the
original novel. I've got a complete first draft and am polishing right
now, the working title is The Last Space Viking.
John
Any chance *Space Vikings Return* might show up as well? That
would be cool.
Thanks for the heads up on Time Crime. Meant to pre-order when I
got the mailer.
G
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Gilmoure
11-05-2010
20:50 UT
|
Any chance *Space Vikings Return* might show up as well? That would be cool.
Thanks for the heads up on Time Crime. Meant to pre-order when I got the mailer.
G
On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 1:28 PM, QT - Otherwhen@aol.com <
qtopic-42-tnfVKeAH3s4T@quicktopic.com> wrote:
>
< replied-to message removed by QT >
|
|
Otherwhen@aol.com
11-05-2010
20:28 UT
|
SPACE VIKINGS
I am currently working on a sequel
to Space Viking, but not the one I wrote with Jerry.... The new book
will take place roughly a century after the original novel; the
unpublished sequel, "Space Vikings Return," I worked on with Jerry
Pournelle was set some 25 years after the Space Viking.
In
conjunction with the new novel, I will be reprinting the original Space
Viking. So I thought I'd query the members of the List and ask you to
bring any long-standing errors to my attention so that I can correct
them in the new hardcover edition. I'd like to make this the
definitive edition with a chronology and some other extras.
Alan
Gutierrez is currently working on the new cover. If anyone has any
ideas or corrections they'd like to suggest, this is the time to sound
out. Either reply to the List, or send them to me directly at:
_otherwhen@aol.com_ (mailto:otherwhen@aol.com)
Thanks!
John F. Carr
P.S.
The new edition of Time Crime is off to the printers so if you want
to take advantage of the pre-order savings, do it quickly.
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Gilmoure
11-03-2010
21:19 UT
|
I'm just glad a popular SF author is bringing Piper's name and work back
in to prominence among a lot of young readers. Just wish he'd mention
John Carr's work as well. Would be really cool if Tor or Baen would pick
up Piper's work and reissue it with some new covers.
G
On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 1:38 PM, QT - David Johnson <
qtopic-42-tnfVKeAH3s4T@quicktopic.com> wrote:
>
< replied-to message removed by QT >
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David Johnson
11-03-2010
20:38 UT
|
Glenn Amspaugh writes:
>Here's John Scalzi's cover for Fuzzy Nation: whatever.scalzi.com
>(http://whatever.scalzi.com/2010/11/02/new-fuzzy-nation-cover/).
That's
pretty cool--though that sure doesn't look like a Federation (or CZC)
contragravity vehicle in the background. And, apparently, this rebooted
Fuzzy hasn't discovered "Estee-fee."
Still, I sort of liked the original illustration commissioned by Scalzi:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2785/4500539786_ffbb1c2a82_o.jpg
What's
cool about both images is the Fuzzy eyes. Unlike the giant orbs
portrayed by Whelan these Fuzzies look like there might still be enough
room in their heads for sentient brains. . . .
Yeek!
David
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Glenn G. Amspaugh
11-03-2010
03:23 UT
|
Here's John Scalzi's cover for Fuzzy Nation: whatever.scalzi.com (http://whatever.scalzi.com/2010/11/02/new-fuzzy-nation-cover/).
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Jon Crocker 11-02-2010
05:21 UT
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Anyone ever see a Piper- themed Halowe'en costume? :)
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