David "PiperFan" Johnson  09-26-2010
07:37 UT
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Antarctic Treaty Secretariat flag (possible model for "second" Federation flag)
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David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-26-2010
07:31 UT
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Blue Ensign (Falklands & British Antarctica's flag when Beam was writing)
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David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-26-2010
07:22 UT
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Blue Ensign (Papua New Guinea's flag when Beam was writing)
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David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-26-2010
07:19 UT
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Blue Ensign (Kenya's flag when Beam was writing)
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David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-26-2010
07:17 UT
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Red Ensign (Tanzania's flag when Beam was writing)
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David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-26-2010
07:14 UT
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Blue Ensign (Malawi's, Zambia's & Zimbabwe's flag when Beam was writing)
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David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-26-2010
06:55 UT
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Oranje-Blanje-Blou (South Africa's flag when Beam was writing)
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David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-26-2010
06:39 UT
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Red Ensign (Canada's flag when Beam was writing; Maple Leaf adopted 1964)
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Jack Russell
09-25-2010
21:44 UT
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Lensman,
Good point. I was thinking light blue for the oceans
and dark green for the land on the Earth icon in the center of the
flag. A white border around it. The laurels would have to be golden
instead of green, I guess, to make them stand out.
Jack Russell
"People shouldn't be shot for committing crimes. They should be shot for being the kind of people who commit them."
H Beam Piper - "Fuzzy Sapiens"
< replied-to message removed by QT >
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Lensman
09-25-2010
19:19 UT
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On 9/25/2010 8:02 AM, QT - Jack Russell wrote:
> The flag itself would have dark blue,
> light blue, green and white.
If
you are going to mix green and blue on the same flag, make sure the
areas are separated with an area or band of "metal" color, as it's
called in heraldry: white, black or yellow. Putting green and blue
right next to each other makes it hard to spot the difference at a
distance, and after all the *intent* of a flag is to be a design easily
seen at at distance.
Note most flags have only two or three colors. Four colors is
problematic,
altho a "fur" color (tan or brown) may appear if an animal is
portrayed. I'm not saying that (fur aside) *no* flags have four
colors, but there is a *reason* most flags have only two or three
colors, and that reason isn't going to change.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clear ether!
Lensman
Visit the Incompleat Known Space Concordance at:
http://www.freewebs.com/knownspace/
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David Johnson
09-25-2010
15:35 UT
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~
Jack Russell wrote:
> Rather than let this devolve into a non-stop argument,
I
hope you don't see pointing out elements of the canon as being
argumentative. That wasn't my intention. If you want to create a
non-canonical Terran Federation flag that's certainly okay. (There
are plenty of non-canonical creative efforts pointed to from
Zarthani.net.)
> I'll just
> say that all the member nations have to agree on procedure and
> representational symbolism.
Of
course, except that the "second" Federation of the era of ~The Cosmic
Computer~ is not and was never made up of nation-states, even though
it got its start on Terra before the advent of hyperdrive.
> As you pointed out, the Fed is the
> successor of the failed UN
Well, the "first" Federation is this--but it also has genuine
collective
security elements (where the UN "failed") that make it more like an
alliance (like NATO) than like the global gab-fest the UN has become
today.
> I really can't see other nations,
> especially whatever is left of France, getting behind anything
> close to the Union Jack. Even Canada left it off their flag.
Any
more unbelievable than that the United States would be allied with a
Western-aligned, monarchist "Islamic Caliphate" as is the case in the
"first" Federation?
The point is merely that the world was a very
different place when Beam was writing in the 1950s and so his
"projections" into the future are going to look that much more
different from the world we are living in today, more than half a
century removed from when he was writing.
Remember Ashmodai! Remember Belphegor!
David
--
"You
know, it's never a mistake to take a second look at anything that
everybody believes." - Rodney Maxwell (H. Beam Piper),
"Graveyard of Dreams"
~
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Jack Russell
09-25-2010
14:50 UT
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Rather than let this devolve into a non-stop argument, I'll just say
that all the member nations have to agree on procedure and
representational symbolism. As you pointed out, the Fed is the
successor of the failed UN (just as the UN succedded the failed League
of Nations). I really can't see other nations, especially whatever is
left of France, getting behind anything close to the Union Jack. Even
Canada left it off their flag.
I'm done with this thread before it gets loud.
Jack Russell
"People shouldn't be shot for committing crimes. They should be shot for being the kind of people who commit them."
H Beam Piper - "Fuzzy Sapiens"
< replied-to message removed by QT >
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David Johnson
09-25-2010
14:33 UT
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~
Jack Russell wrote:
> On the surface that would seem like a good idea, but the only
> Commonwealth country left intact would be Austrailia...maybe
> the Falklands.
Not
quite. At the time Beam was writing his Future History yarns, most
of sub-Saharan Africa was ruled from Britain. What wasn't, was mostly
ruled from Paris. The British were also the guarantors of security
across most of southwest Asia. Britain (and France) still thought it
could challenge the United States even (e.g. the Suez Crisis). Sure,
things went downhill for Britain quickly after that but by then Beam
had killed himself. . . .
And so, again, we see in most of the "second" Federation yarns
various sorts of Britsh-heritage cultural indicators, not American ones.
> And Britain was the last hold-out before
> joining according the history.
The history is unclear here--is this "first" or the "second"
Federation?--but
it would seem the reason that Britain was the last nation to join the
Federation may be because it out-lasted the United States. We _know_
that the United States was _not_ a key player in the formation of the
"second" Federation.
> I'm basing the flag on a
> UN/Whole Earth idea.
Just
seems a odd choice, given that "Edge of the Knife" tells us that even
the "first" Federation was created as a successor to a failed UN.
> the Union Jack design would have a hard
> time getting into the mix that way.
Not
if we understand what the world looked like when Beam was writing and
extrapolate from that point. Britain was the waning global power but
still had a significant presence in the Southern Hemisphere. When
Northern Hemisphere civilization is destroyed in a conflict in which
Britain may have been a minor player--recall Canada's secession from
the Commonwealth about the time the "first" Federation is
formed--it
is British-heritage societies--and perhaps even a British successor
government in the Southern Hemisphere (or off-world
someplace like Venus) that is in the stronger position than are the Americans in their Antarctic enclave. . . .
Remember Ashmodai! Remember Belphegor!
David
--
"And
when somebody makes a statement you don't understand, don't tell him
he's crazy. Ask him what he means." - Otto Harkaman (H. Beam Piper),
_Space_Viking_
~
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Jack Russell
09-25-2010
14:02 UT
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On the surface that would seem like a good idea, but the only
Commonwealth country left intact would be Austrailia...maybe the
Falklands. And Britain was the last hold-out before joining according
the history. I'm basing the flag on a UN/Whole Earth idea. the Union
Jack design would have a hard time getting into the mix that way.
However, elements of the Austrailian flag, the stars and dark blue
background, could easily translate. The blue would represent the night
sky, the stars the colonies. The flag itself would have dark blue,
light blue, green and white. It would need to be fairly simple and not
give obvious preferance to any single country to be accepted by all
the major powers. Most importantly, the focus should be on the meaning
of the flag, what it represents.
Jack Russell
"People shouldn't be shot for committing crimes. They should be shot for being the kind of people who commit them."
H Beam Piper - "Fuzzy Sapiens"
< replied-to message removed by QT >
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David Johnson
09-25-2010
05:36 UT
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~
Jack Russell wrote:
> Fine, plan B. How many
> member planets existed at the foundation of the 2nd federation?
I'm guessing at least three: Terra, Venus, and Mars. Probably Luna too. Possibly even Mercury and Titan. . . .
> Do the 13 colonies thing (blatant ref to Old Glory)
Actually,
if we look closely at some of the practices of the "second"
Federation--e.g., constructs like Government House and the Chartered
Companies--it seems the Terran Federation draws much more from the
British Empire/Commonwealth heritage of Southern Hemisphere nation-
states like Australia and South Africa than from the United States.
So, perhaps something modeled on the Union Jack would make more sense.
. . .
(I suspect elements of the United States survive in
Antarctica--where General Lanningham flees so South America from--and
on Luna and Mars after the end of civlization in the Northern
Hemisphere but it's nowhere near the power it was before the Fourth
World War. Likewise, elements of the United Kingdom--heck, the Crown
Jewels survive tens of thousands of years only to be stolen in "The
Keeper"!--also likely survive the destruction of civilization in
Britain, not only in the Commonwealth nations of the Southern
Hemisphere but also on Venus.)
> and just
> have the initial colonies repped around Terra.
I
suspect the key element of the "second" Federation flag might be
something symbolizing the "single world sovereignty" that prevailed
after the destruction of civilization in the Northern Hemisphere.
This was an important lesson for Terrans of that period.
On the
other hand, I'm not sure that "the revolt of the colonies on Mars and
Venus" was a failure. It may be that Venus (and Mars) formed the
"second" Federation in partnership with what remained of Terran
civilization in the Southern Hemisphere. So perhaps the emblematology
of the "second" Federation flag indicates relative equality between
member planets like Venus and Terra (and Mars and Luna and Mercury and
Titan). The Union Jack would be a good model for this sort of thing
too. . . .
Remember Ashmodai! Remember Belphegor!
David
--
"You
either went on to the inevitable catastrophe, or you realized, in
time, that nuclear armament and nationalism cannot exist together on
the same planet, and it is easier to banish a habit of thought than a
piece of knowledge." - H. Beam Piper, _Uller_Uprising_
~
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Jack Russell
09-25-2010
01:45 UT
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oooooKay. That's a lot of planets. Fine, plan B. How many member
planets existed at the foundation of the 2nd federation? Do the 13
colonies thing (blatant ref to Old Glory) and just have the initial
colonies repped around Terra.
Jack Russell
"People shouldn't be shot for committing crimes. They should be shot for being the kind of people who commit them."
H Beam Piper - "Fuzzy Sapiens"
< replied-to message removed by QT >
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Jack Russell
09-25-2010
01:01 UT
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My idea for the Federation Flag.
Terra in the center surrounded
by a ring of stars (one per colony planet to include Venus and Mars,
but not Luna) with the whole mess bracketed by a laural branches.
Gives a nod to the UN Flag, gives representation to all the colony worlds with the birthplace of humanity at the center.
Howzat?
Jack Russell
"People shouldn't be shot for committing crimes. They should be shot for being the kind of people who commit them."
H Beam Piper - "Fuzzy Sapiens"
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David Johnson
09-25-2010
00:51 UT
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~
Jack Russell wrote:
> but I need to know
> how many planets are in the Fed at the time of the story in
> question.
In
~Computer~, when Merlin is made to re-run his prediction for the
Federation, data "for almost five hundred planets" is entered.
Remember Ashmodai! Remember Belphegor!
David
--
"We
talk glibly about ten to the hundredth power, but emotionally we
still count, 'One, Two, Three, Many.'" - Otto Harkaman (H. Beam
Piper), _Space_Viking_
~
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Jack Russell
09-24-2010
23:24 UT
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Does anybody have a list of planets and what years they joined the
Federation? I have an idea for a flag, but I need to know how many
planets are in the Fed at the time of the story in question.
Jack Russell
"People shouldn't be shot for committing crimes. They should be shot for being the kind of people who commit them."
H Beam Piper - "Fuzzy Sapiens"
< replied-to message removed by QT >
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David Johnson
09-24-2010
22:47 UT
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~
John Carr wrote:
> Piper
> never described the Federation or how it operates
Well,
he did tell us there were _two_ Federations: "And after Venus seceded
from the First Federation, before the Second Federation was
organized" (~Space Viking~). The "first" Federation was the
terrestrial,
international organization formed by the United States in the run-up
to the Thirty Days' War (the Third World War and first Atomic War):
"Terran
Federation is a tentative name for a proposed organization to take
the place of the U.N. if that organization breaks up" ("The Edge of
the Knife").
"Britain was a great nation, once; the last nation to join the Terran Federation" ("The Keeper").
Presumably,
the "second" Federation was a different sort of body, formed after
"the end of civilization in the Northern Hemisphere and the rise of
the new civilization in South America and South Africa and Australia"
(~Uller Uprising~) after the Fourth World War (the final Atomic War
and the first Interplanetary War). The "second" Federation was an
interstellar government which included "Member Republics" like Venus
(~Four-Day Planet~, "Naudsonce," and "When in the Course--"), Khepera
(~Space Viking~), and Poictesme (~The Cosmic Computer~). This
"second" Federation had a Constitution (~Four-Day Planet~, ~Little
Fuzzy~) and even a "Federation Day" (~Four-Day Planet~).
"The
Edge of the Knife" and "Omnilingual" are yarns of the "first" Terran
Federation. The yarns of the "second" Terran Federation begin with
"When in the Course--" and end with "Graveyard of Dreams" and ~The
Cosmic Computer~.
> There are hints that the Federation is similar
> in organization to the U.N., but a United Nations with teeth.
This
is the "first" Terran Federation, an international organization made
up of some but perhaps not all the nation-states on Terra (and of
colonies on the Moon, Mars, and Venus--which ultimately secedes). The
"second" Terran Federation is a full-on sovereign government, with
its own military forces and "a single world sovereignty" that
ultimately becomes a single interstellar sovereignty . . . at least
until the emergence of the System States Alliance.
> One thing that Beam never described was the Federation
> emblem/insignia or flag
". . . a neat rectangle of blue bunting emblazoned with the wreathed globe of the Terran Federation. . ." (~Uller Uprising~).
".
. . painted light blue and marked with the wreathed globe of the
Terran Federation . . ." ("Graveyard of Dreams"). Interestingly, this
particular description of the markings on crates of salvaged
Federation Third Fleet-Army Force materiel being loaded at Litchfied
was not included when Beam described the same scene in ~The Cosmic
Computer~.
~Uprising~ (published 1952) was Beam's first Terran
Federation yarn and its Federation emblem looks much like the wreathed
globe on a light blue field of the United Nations. Beam seems to
have still had the same idea in mind when he wrote "Graveyard"
(published 1958) but apparently changed his mind by the time he
expanded "Graveyard" into ~Computer~ (originally titled ~Junkyard
Planet~; published 1963). ~Computer~ seems to have been expanded
after Beam wrote ~Space
Viking~, which is where the explicit reference to "first" and
"second"
Terran Federations occurs. I'm guessing Beam's change of mind about
the emblems reflects his conception of the "second"
Federation of
~Computer~ as something fundamentally different from the UN-like
international organization that was the "first" Federation.
Remember Ashmodai! Remember Belphegor!
David
--
"You
know, it's never a mistake to take a second look at anything that
everybody believes." - Rodney Maxwell (H. Beam Piper),
"Graveyard of Dreams"
~
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Gilmoure
09-24-2010
18:15 UT
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Edge of the Knife didn't have some mention of an insignia? Been awhile
since I've seen that collection of short stories (in storage for 5+
years).
G
On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 10:32 AM, QT - John Carr <
qtopic-42-tnfVKeAH3s4T@quicktopic.com> wrote:
>
< replied-to message removed by QT >
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John Carr
09-24-2010
17:32 UT
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I'm doing some research on the Terran Federation for a sequel to "Cosmic
Computer" that I'm working on with a co-author. Piper never described
the Federation or how it operates and I'd like to flesh it out. There
are hints that the Federation is similar in organization to the U.N.,
but a United Nations with teeth.
One thing that Beam never
described was the Federation emblem/insignia or flag -- unless I missed
the citation. Anyone got any ideas?
John Carr
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Lawrence Feldman
09-20-2010
21:46 UT
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John
I wanted to
let you know that I am interested in the new Time Crime volume and hope
you can put me down for a volume. I will not be able to pay anything
until the beginning of October.
Larry (Lawrenc846@gmail.com)
On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 3:15 PM, QT - John Carr <
qtopic-42-tnfVKeAH3s4T@quicktopic.com> wrote:
>
< replied-to message removed by QT >
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David Johnson
09-12-2010
14:46 UT
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~
Mike Robertson wrote:
> Even a direct hit would take out only the top of the
> tube, leaving a base for repair/refitting. This would make
> firing enough missiles to destroy ships possible.
Viking-era
ships have the same challenges--being able to sustain hits to their
missile launchers while still maintaining the capability to launch
missiles. Pound-for-pound (and stellar-for-stellar) a
moonbase or
other fixed facility is going to have an advantage over ships because
the base doesn't have to construct, operate, and
maintain
Dillingham hyperdrives and/or Abbot lift-and-drives. What the
ship-born combatant spends on drives the base combatant spends on more
armor, more missile launchers, and more missiles.
> A siege of
> such a base would probably consist of trying to locate and
> destroy all the missile sites while trying to not be blown up in
> the process.
Which is why we see the Mardukan moonbase managing to hold out for months against several Makannist ships.
Smash the traitors first!
David
--
"We
talk glibly about ten to the hundredth power, but emotionally we
still count, 'One, Two, Three, Many.'" - Otto Harkaman (H. Beam
Piper), _Space_Viking_
~
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Jim "Rhino" Sparr 09-12-2010
04:41 UT
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Jim Broshot writes:
>>>>Wasn't there a short story
about a lunar base with nuclear weapons taken >>over by a renegade
general and a nuclear war prevented by the suicidal >>efforts of
one of the young officers, as part of Heinlein's Future History
>>series? My Heinlein library is packed up, ran out of room in the
science >>fiction/fantasy bookcase.
That's "The Long
Watch" from /Green Hills Of Earth/ originally, later in /Future
History/. The young Patrol officer was John Ezra Dahlquist, later
referenced in /Space Cadet/ as one of the four martyred officers whose
names were called at every muster.
Regards,
Jim
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Mike Robertson
09-11-2010
22:50 UT
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Lensmen writes:
So the scenario in /Space Viking/ where the base
on a moon of Marduk holds out for some weeks against a concerted attack
may be possible. One does wonder, though, how any surface
installation, including launch
tubes for missiles, would survive bombardment with nukes. Even
collapsium armor won't hold up to a *direct* hit from a nuke.
So altho those in the underground bunker may survive, how could
a moonbase continue to fight back after blanket bombardment
with nukes?
Since
Piper clearly intended that the moonbase in Space Viking be seen as
powerful, I assumed it has dozens or even hundreds of missile tubes,
probably concealed as rocks, hills or other lunar features. Even a
direct hit would take out only the top of the tube, leaving a base for
repair/refitting. This would make firing enough missiles to destroy
ships possible. A siege of such a base would probably consist of trying
to locate and destroy all the missile sites while trying to not be
blown up in the process.
Mike Robertson
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Gilmoure
09-09-2010
19:13 UT
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Cool beans! I can see I'll have a John Carr shelf, as well as Heinlein, Tolkien and Piper shelves.
G
On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 10:24 AM, QT - John Carr <
qtopic-42-tnfVKeAH3s4T@quicktopic.com> wrote:
>
< replied-to message removed by QT >
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John Carr
09-09-2010
17:24 UT
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Hi Everyone,
The new edition of Time Crime is coming along very
nicely and I hope to have copies in the mail by late October or early
November. The printers get a bit busy around the end of the year so it's
hard to give specific dates...I've been burned doing that in the past!
I've
always felt that Time Crime was incomplete, due to its abrupt ending.
So, when I got the idea for the Time War Trilogy, I decided to write a
new third portion to Time Crime, adding new and vital information about
the depths to which the Wizard Traders have infiltrated Home Time Line.
The next strictly Paratime novel will be Time Trouble, which will be
followed by Time War.
I'm making good progress on Gunpowder God
-- the next Kalvan novel -- and it will be out in the fall of next year.
My plan is to alternate a Paratime novel with a Kalvan novel until I
finish the Time Wars trilogy. You'll see why when you get to the end of
Gunpowder God....
If you haven't already, you might want to visit my new website: www.warworldcentral.com
I'm
also reviving the old War World shared-world anthology series that
Jerry Pournelle and I put together almost 20 years ago...my how time
flies! My plan is to do the new War World volumes in chronological order
with lots of new stories. War World: Discovery is the first of many to
come books and chronicles the early discovery and colonization of Haven.
We always saw this series as "in the spirit of H. Beam Piper" as it
takes place in Jerry's CoDominium/Empire of Man universe which was
heavily influenced by Beam. The War World Author's Guide alone runs over
100,000 words!
John
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David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-09-2010
14:00 UT
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~
New ~Time Crime~ coming Fall 2010!
Just received a flyer
from Pequod Press about the impending publication of John Carr's
expansion of Piper's ~Time Crime~! Details should be available soon at www.hostigos.com.
The cover illustration will be Alan Gutierrez's wonderful "Dhergabar":
http://alangutierrez.com/gallery/sci-fi/mi...ous-science-fiction
I can hardly wait to read this new Paratime Police yarn!
David
--
"I
remember, when I was just a kid, about a hundred and fifty years ago--a
hundred and thirty-nine, to be exact--I picked up a fellow on the
Fourth Level, just about where you're operating, and dragged him a
couple of hundred parayears. I went back to find him and return him to
his own time-line, but before I could locate him, he'd been arrested by
the local authorities as a suspicious character, and got himself shot
trying to escape. I felt badly about that. . . ." - Tortha Karf, "Police
Operation"
~
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David Johnson
09-09-2010
06:26 UT
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~
Jim Broshot wrote:
> Wasn't there a short story about a lunar base with nuclear
> weapons taken over by a renegade general and a nuclear war
> prevented by the suicidal efforts of one of the young officers,
> as part of Heinlein's Future History series?
It looks like Heinlein may indeed have inspired Beam--with the film ~Destination Moon~:
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/882/1
David
--
"Heinlein can do what he likes. I prefer to keep my heroine
_virgo_intacto_ until the end." - H. Beam Piper
~
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Jim Broshot
09-09-2010
03:13 UT
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QT - Jim Rhino Sparr wrote:
> base was in a VERY hostile environment. Also Heinlein had the
> Nazis with a lunar base in /Rocketship Galileo/. Beam's story
> was probably a pure potboiler, as well, so trying to use it for
> rational continuity might be hopeless.
Wasn't
there a short story about a lunar base with nuclear weapons taken over
by a renegade general and a nuclear war prevented by the suicidal
efforts of one of the young officers, as part of Heinlein's Future
History series? My Heinlein library is packed up, ran out of room in the
science fiction/fantasy bookcase.
Jim Broshot
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Jim "Rhino" Sparr 09-08-2010
23:52 UT
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Gilmoure wrote:
>>I think Beam meant the Lunar Base
to be the ultimate holdout against any >>Earth bound adversaries.
Reading up on Cheyenne Mountain Air Force >>installation, it
wasn't started until 1961 so not sure how much public >>info was
out there for Beam to pick up on.
I think Beam might have been
more inspired by the National Geographic article on a base built under
the glaciers near Thule, Greenland. It appeared in the proper timeframe
and the base was in a VERY hostile environment. Also Heinlein had the
Nazis with a lunar base in /Rocketship Galileo/. Beam's story was
probably a pure potboiler, as well, so trying to use it for rational
continuity might be hopeless. Remember he originally set the Kalvan
story on Freya....
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David Johnson
09-08-2010
20:41 UT
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~
David "Lensman" Sooby writes:
>> I
>> never cared for the ending either - the Professor fakes
>> craziness just to get into the 'safe' asylum? Couldn't he have
>> just quietly taken some vacation time and bought a ticket for
>> Alaska, Hawaii, New Zealand?
>
>Yes, unfortunately it's a case of wanting a "twist ending" so
>badly that the protagonist does something for which there is no
>good motive.
It
would have worked better simply to have Chalmers fail to convince the
psychiatrist that he was sane (rather than to fake insanity). That
would have given the "twist" ending: man who is proven to have seen the
future is nevertheless not believed and committed to an asylum.
The
problem is that this sort of ending wouldn't have offered the promise of
survival of the comming nuclear conflagration which "Edge" clumsily
provides.
(Of course, that might have been provided with a sort of
epilogue in which Cutler or someone notes the irony of the fact that the
asylum is located in a place planned to be a major recovery marshaling
point in the case of just the sort of attack the "mad" Chalmers was
predicting.)
The "hopeful" ending is typical of many of Beam's
Terrohuman Future History yarns, ~The Cosmic Computer~ and ~Space
Viking~ being the two best examples. Of course, we all know that "hoped
for" outcome never actually comes to pass in Beam's Future History.
This would seem to be the case with Chalmers too as we never hear in any
later Future History yarn about that early First Century, Atomic Era,
professor who could foresee the future. . . .
> Sorry to say it, but that's bad writing. We true
>Piper fans can, of course, assert that it was an editor's bad
>decision, and not Beam's!
>:)
I'm
not sure that isn't what happened here. Beam likely would have wanted
the "hopeful" ending but it may be that it was his editor (Campbell?)
who demanded some sort of "twist." Beam, as we know, would have done
what was needed to get the check. . . .
David
--
"A girl can
punch any kind of a button a man can, and a lot of them knew what
buttons to punch, and why." - Conn Maxwell (H. Beam Piper),
_The_Cosmic_Computer_ ~
|
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David Johnson
09-08-2010
20:26 UT
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~
Glenn "Gilmoure" Amspaugh wrote:
>I think Beam meant the Lunar Base to be the ultimate holdout
>against any Earth bound adversaries.
[snip]
>he may have carried
>forward the idea of these hardened locations to their ultimate
>safe location.
That
doesn't seem to fit with Operation Triple Cross which relied upon
redundancy--rather than hardening--as the means of ensuring a
second-strike capability. The North American rocketports which resupply
the Lunar Base aren't hardened, just hidden.
David
--
"A girl
can punch any kind of a button a man can, and a lot of them knew what
buttons to punch, and why." - Conn Maxwell (H. Beam Piper),
_The_Cosmic_Computer_ ~
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Gilmoure
09-08-2010
15:54 UT
|
I think Beam meant the Lunar Base to be the ultimate holdout against any
Earth bound adversaries. Reading up on Cheyenne Mountain Air Force
installation, it wasn't started until 1961 so not sure how much public
info was out there for Beam to pick up on. If he had heard of it or
maybe even just Popular Mechanics speculations on nuke proof silos and
such, he may have carried forward the idea of these hardened locations
to their ultimate safe location. As for the idea of dropping nukes back
on Earth, yeah, doesn't make as much sense but still understand it. I
think Heinlein's Space Cadet story has a better way of doing this,
having the missiles already in polar orbit, just waiting to be nudged
groundwards.
Gilmoure
On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 7:09 AM, QT - David Johnson <
qtopic-42-tnfVKeAH3s4T@quicktopic.com> wrote:
>
< replied-to message removed by QT >
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|
David Johnson
09-08-2010
14:09 UT
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~
Jim Rhino Sparr wrote:
> In "Edge" Beam wrote of an isolated military
> base supported from Earth. The situations are only similar in
> that the Moon is involved.
Exactly. So what on Earth--or Luna--must Beam have had in mind?
David
--
"You
know, it's never a mistake to take a second look at anything that
everybody believes." - Rodney Maxwell (H. Beam Piper),
"Graveyard of Dreams"
~
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David Johnson
09-08-2010
14:07 UT
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~
Jack Russell wrote:
> I believe Lensman was pointing out that you didn't need to haul
> any warheads up there at all.
Understood,
but irrelevant. The whole point of Operation Triple Cross is to
_resupply_ the Lunar Base from rocketports in North America, enabling
it to retaliate for the Eastern Axis first strike. So, obviously,
Beam had some other arrangement in mind.
David
--
"You know any kind of observation that doesn't contaminate the thing observed, professor?" - Tortha Karf (H. Beam Piper),
_Lord_Kalvan_of_Otherwhen_
~
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Jack Russell
09-08-2010
13:55 UT
|
I believe Lensman was pointing out that you didn't need to haul any
warheads up there at all. Just set up a big rail-gun and shoot lanar
debri at your target. The math involved would be staggering, of
course, accounting for rotation, gravity, weather conditions and
what-have-you to strike a precise target, but Heinlein thought it was
doable.
Wow, I haven't read that book in 30 years.
Jack Russell
"People shouldn't be shot for committing crimes. They should be shot for being the kind of people who commit them."
H Beam Piper - "Fuzzy Sapiens"
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Jim "Rhino" Sparr 09-08-2010
06:51 UT
|
Just to point out, in /The Moon is a Harsh Mistress/ the "warheads" were
manufactured on Luna and delivered by an accelerator which was built to
deliver mined materials to Earth. This gave the rebels a bottomless
ammo dump. The state of lunar colonization in the story was also such
at the time of the Lunar Revolution as to make the colonists
economically and logistically self sufficient as well as sufficiently
numerous and spread out that they effectively resisted Earth's attempts
to subdue them. In "Edge" Beam wrote of an isolated military base
supported from Earth. The situations are only similar in that the Moon
is involved. BTW, anybody else remember Martin Caidin's novel /No Man's
World/? Lunar military scenarios were popular during the Cold War.
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Lensman
09-08-2010
06:24 UT
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On 9/7/2010 8:02 PM, QT - Jon Crocker wrote:
> For me the main thrust of the story has been the Professor's
> precognition, and some of the side-effects it could have. I
> never cared for the ending either - the Professor fakes
> craziness just to get into the 'safe' asylum? Couldn't he have
> just quietly taken some vacation time and bought a ticket for
> Alaska, Hawaii, New Zealand?
Yes,
unfortunately it's a case of wanting a "twist ending" so badly that
the protagonist does something for which there is no good motive. Sorry
to say it, but that's bad writing. We true Piper fans can, of course,
assert that it was an editor's bad decision, and not Beam's!
:)
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clear ether!
Lensman
Visit the Incompleat Known Space Concordance at:
http://www.freewebs.com/knownspace/
|
David "PiperFan" Johnson 09-08-2010
05:22 UT
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~
[For some reason this message doesn't seem to be posting by e-mail. Apologies for duplicates.]
David "Lensman" Sooby wrote:
> If you haven't read Heinlein's /The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress/,
> you ought to. From Luna, you don't have to launch expensive
> ICBMs to attack a far-away enemy with nukes. You can just
> fling the warheads as bombs, or at worst the warhead with a
> very small and much cheaper rocket for steering.
Yes,
but you still have to get all those warheads to the Moon in the first
place! As I learned from arguments about whether it made more sense to
launch another square meter of solar panel to run automated equipment or
to launch the additional food that would be consumed by astronauts
doing the same tasks manually over the thirty-life of the space station,
_everything_ on-orbit--or on the lunar surface--boils down to launch
weight.
Overall, after lifting everything from the Earth to the
Moon to construct your lunar warhead-launching base, you haven't saved
anything. Indeed, given the extra fuel costs of getting your materiel
to the Moon in the first place, pound-for-pound the Eastern Axis will
drop more munitions on targets in North America than the U.S. can drop
on Eastern Axis targets by first lifting it to the Moon and then turning
around and dropping it back to Earth.
This of course presumes
that none of the munitions or their lunar launch support facilities are
_manufactured_ on the Moon, which clearly is not the case in the "Edge"
scenario because then there would be no need for the Operation Triple
Cross duplicate and triplicate rocketports which are used to "resupply"
the Lunar Base!
> Some hard-SF writers, notably Pournelle and Niven, have made
> much of the "high ground" of orbital space as a place from
> which to rain fire and destruction down on the poor hapless
> enemy below. This may prove to be an overly optimistic
> scenario, and frankly I think a moonbase as a military base is
> pretty silly.
Tactically,
I agree, but clearly Beam was infatuated with the idea of a lunar base.
It appears not only in "Edge" but also in at least two of the Hartley
yarns.
I'm just trying to sort out how the idea might have made
sense to him (not whether the idea makes sense generally--or across
several centuries of additional space development).
David
--
"We
talk glibly about ten to the hundredth power, but emotionally we still
count, 'One, Two, Three, Many.'" - Otto Harkaman (H. Beam Piper),
_Space_Viking_
~
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David Johnson
09-08-2010
05:13 UT
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~
Jack Russell wrote:
> I did some cogitation on the issue and determined that a missile
> fired from Luna would get to Terra far faster than we got to
> the moon in 1969.
That
may be true but the question is why it apparently made more sense (to
Beam, at least) to send supply rockets to the Moon from North America
and then turn around and drop munitions from the Moon onto Eastern
Axis targets than simply to launch the missiles from North America
directly at the targets in Eastern Axis nations in the first place.
David
--
"A
girl can punch any kind of a button a man can, and a lot of them knew
what buttons to punch, and why." - Conn Maxwell (H. Beam Piper),
_The_Cosmic_Computer_
~
|
|
David Johnson
09-08-2010
05:08 UT
|
~
Jon Crocker wrote:
> For me the main thrust of the story has been the Professor's
> precognition, and some of the side-effects it could have.
Agreed,
but that's also the part of the story that makes it the most
difficult to fit into the rest of the Terrohuman Future History (and
why, presumably, Beam equivocates about including this yarn when he
outlines the TFH stories in "The Future History").
> I
> never cared for the ending either - the Professor fakes
> craziness just to get into the 'safe' asylum? Couldn't he have
> just quietly taken some vacation time and bought a ticket for
> Alaska, Hawaii, New Zealand?
Exactly,
or simply _driven_ up to the town near the asylum--which supposedly
was in an area untouched by the Eastern Axis attacks and therefore a
marshaling point for recovery efforts--along with his colleague
Pottgeiter and their secretary.
David
--
"And when somebody
makes a statement you don't understand, don't tell him he's crazy.
Ask him what he means." - Otto Harkaman (H. Beam Piper),
_Space_Viking_
~
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David Johnson
09-08-2010
05:02 UT
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~
Jon Crocker wrote:
> I've always considered this story to be an
> example of Piper writing this before technical advancements and
> policy changes would leave that part of the plot behind
That may very well be but presumably Beam had _some_ scenario in mind at the time in which a lunar base made sense. . . .
David
--
"Computermen don't like to hear computers called smart." - Conn Maxwell (H. Beam Piper), "Graveyard of Dreams"
~
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Jon Crocker 09-08-2010
04:36 UT
|
Absolutely right.
But if you take a Mk-17 Thor Space-to-Surface
missile, and launch it from the Lunar Fortress, and an identical Mk-17
and launch it from a Freya-class weapons platform in low earth orbit,
which will reach its target in the Eastern Alliance quicker?
If
you're looking for a simple 'fortification' I'd be hard pressed to think
of a way in which a lunar base would be superior to an orbital
platform, at least in Piper's terms - he dealt with missiles,
counter-missiles, robots, all that good stuff.
If we were
talking about the Clavius linear accelerator, twelve miles of
electromagnetic railgun shooting deliveries of refined metals to the
Goddard Space City being constructed in L4 orbit being used instead to
drop slugs of lunar regolith on cities, sure.
But any 'missile'
would be built by Rockwell or Raytheon or the US Space Force Board of
Munitions and shipped to Luna, not constructed there. And it just makes
so much more sense to keep them closer to hand - still on the 'high
ground' but in earth orbit, not a fraction of a light-second away.
I'd like to know why we haven't been lately myself, by the way...
|
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Jack Russell
09-08-2010
03:51 UT
|
I did some cogitation on the issue and determined that a missile fired
from Luna would get to Terra far faster than we got to the moon in
1969. First of all, leaving Terra means escaping a gravity well 6
times greater than Luna's. So, launching a missile from Luna to Terra
would be much easier. less gravity to escape, more target gravity to
pull your ICBM down to it. Next, one of the reasons the Astronauts took
so long to make the T to L trip? Fuel conservation. Missile tend to
be one way tickets, so not much need to save fuel, especially when you
will use a lot less of it escaping Lunar gravity. An unmanned missile
will also be smaller and lighter, allowing for less wind resistance
when entering Terra's atmosphere. Finally, in the last 40 years there
have been uncountable technilogical advances. I can't imagine we
couldn't make the trip in less time if we really wanted to. The
question is, why haven't we tried in the last three decades?
Jack Russell
"People shouldn't be shot for committing crimes. They should be shot for being the kind of people who commit them."
H Beam Piper - "Fuzzy Sapiens"
< replied-to message removed by QT >
|
Jon Crocker 09-08-2010
02:02 UT
|
I really don't see any benefit to a moonbase in the situation described, not used like this for the situation in that story.
From
Luna, you might not need ICBMs, but unless you're prepared to wait a
week or two for a small rocket to reach Terra, you need some sort of big
rocket to move your 'smaller and cheaper' warhead.
If you're
looking to maximize your return on that angle, you'd go with an orbital
weapons platform and play 'drop the rock down the gravity well'. A
low-earth orbit would cut your response time to hours or minutes, not
the days it would take a moonbase to reply. Yes, you could bury a
moonbase, but if you're armour-plating things with collapsium anyway...
I
looked up the story and it was first printed in 1959, so this was right
around the time Strategic Air Command was getting tankers to make its
deterrence flights viable. The George Washington class, the first
dedicated missile subs were being built, and I don't think they'd
started on the missile silos in North Dakota yet. I've always
considered this story to be an example of Piper writing this before
technical advancements and policy changes would leave that part of the
plot behind - I think 'deterrence by massive retaliation' was formalized
five or so years after this.
For me the main thrust of the
story has been the Professor's precognition, and some of the
side-effects it could have. I never cared for the ending either - the
Professor fakes craziness just to get into the 'safe' asylum? Couldn't
he have just quietly taken some vacation time and bought a ticket for
Alaska, Hawaii, New Zealand?
|
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Lensman
09-07-2010
16:57 UT
|
On 9/6/2010 10:39 PM, QT - David Johnson wrote:
> It must be that there is some advantage gained by attacking with
> missiles launched from the Moon, as compared to Earth-based
> missiles. Any ideas about what this advantage could possibly
> be?
If
you haven't read Heinlein's /The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress/, you ought
to. From Luna, you don't have to launch expensive ICBMs to attack a
far-away enemy with nukes. You can just fling the warheads as bombs, or
at worst the warhead with a very small and much cheaper rocket for
steering.
I'm not sure how practical that would be in practice once
you've got lasers, tho. If your atomic bombs or missiles take three
days to reach their targets on Earth (as the Apollo rockets took three
days to reach Luna), then your enemy can shoot them down with
ground-based lasers at their leisure.
Some hard-SF writers,
notably Pournelle and Niven, have made much of the "high ground" of
orbital space as a place from which to rain fire and destruction down
on the poor hapless enemy below. This may prove to be an overly
optimistic scenario, and frankly I think a moonbase as a military base
is pretty silly.
*However*, there may be an exception. If you're
fighting a space battle, putting a base deep underground on a moon
does give you a defensible position. Even nuclear weapons can't
penetrate that far underground. So the scenario in /Space Viking/
where the base on a moon of Marduk holds out for some weeks against a
concerted attack may be possible. One does wonder, though, how any
surface installation, including launch tubes for missiles, would
survive bombardment with nukes. Even collapsium armor won't hold up to
a *direct* hit from a nuke. So altho those in the underground bunker
may survive, how could a moonbase continue to fight back after blanket
bombardment with nukes?
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clear ether!
Lensman
Visit the Incompleat Known Space Concordance at:
http://www.freewebs.com/knownspace/
|
|
David Johnson
09-07-2010
04:39 UT
|
~
Operation Triple Cross
I've been rereading "Edge of the
Knife" which has got me to wondering about Operation Triple Cross.
This is the secret plan by which the rocketports used to supply the
U.S. Lunar Base each have a second- and third-back-up site. Thus,
while the Eastern Axis begins the Thirty Days' War by launching (what
was hoped to be) preemptive missile strikes against the first "line"
of rocketports, the attack ultimately fails because, presumably, the
second- and third-back-up rocketports are able to continue to supply
the Lunar Base until the "moon-rockets begin to fall" and the Eastern
Axis is defeated.
So here's the question: why does the U.S. need
the Lunar Base? (There's no mention of an Eastern Axis lunar
facility. Indeed, it is Eastern Axis demands for the
"demilitarization and
internationalization" of the U.S. Lunar Base
which leads to the collapse of the United Nations and the creation of
the first Terran Federation, suggesting that no Eastern Axis moon base
exists.) If the Eastern Axis is able to attack the first "line" of
U.S.
rocketports from Earth-based missile launch sites, why doesn't
the U.S. simply use the "back-up" rocketports of Operation Triple
Cross to retaliate? Why bother first "resupplying" the Lunar Base and
then launching the retaliatory strikes from there?
It must be that there is some advantage gained by attacking with missiles launched from the Moon, as compared to Earth-based
missiles. Any ideas about what this advantage could possibly be?
Bring the rain,
David
--
"A
girl can punch any kind of a button a man can, and a lot of them knew
what buttons to punch, and why." - Conn Maxwell (H. Beam Piper),
_The_Cosmic_Computer_
~
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David Johnson
09-04-2010
14:56 UT
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~
The Islamic Caliphate (or Kaliphate)?
Don't know if
"Pedromoderno" is a Piper fan or not, but it looks like he has been
detailing Beam's Islamic Caliphate from the Terrohuman Future History
(or perhaps the Islamic Kaliphate from Beam's Hartley yarns):
http://ib.frath.net/w/Hashemite_Caliphate
The material is actually background for the "Ill Bethisad" alternate history setting:
http://www.bethisad.com/
Salam Alaykum,
David
--
"I
remember, when I was just a kid, about a hundred and fifty years
ago--a hundred and thirty-nine, to be exact--I picked up a fellow on
the Fourth Level, just about where you're operating, and dragged him a
couple of hundred parayears. I went back to find him and return him
to his own time-line, but before I could locate him, he'd been
arrested
by the local authorities as a suspicious character, and got himself
shot trying to escape. I felt badly about that. . . ." - Tortha Karf,
"Police Operation"
~
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