|
Gilmoure
01-30-2010
22:09 UT
|
Just got Fireseed Wars in the mail. Gorgeous book and first rate layout. Can't wait to read it!
|
|
David Johnson
01-21-2010
12:51 UT
|
~
Jack "Grimmoer" Russell wrote:
> Like "Sliders"? When you take that much out of Piper's work, it
> ceases to be Piper's work. After which, well, what's the
> point?
But
weren't the "sliders" essentially just some out-timers who had
managed to get a hold of a paratemporal conveyor prototype? I was
always waiting for some Paracops to show up at some point, looking to
retrieve the conveyor and "neutralize" the threat to the Paratime
Secret. :)
Down Styphon!
David
--
"You know, it's
never a mistake to take a second look at anything that everybody
believes." - Rodney Maxwell (H. Beam Piper),
"Graveyard of Dreams"
~
|
|
David Johnson
01-21-2010
12:45 UT
|
~
Jim "Rhino" Sparr wrote:
> A Time Tunnel like series based on Paratime would fly on several
> levels, great adventure, but one wonders how much Verkan and his
> culture would be seen as heroes given their exploitation of the
> other timelines and their general arrogance and complacency.
> What they fight most to do is maintain their comfortable status
> quo.
Agreed.
At the end of the day Beam's paratimers are an ugly bunch.
Obviously, some tweaking would be required to paint them in a manner
which would maintain the sympathy of the audience. One way to do that
would be to "pump up" the conflict between the Paratime Police and
the nefarious "Organization" of _Time_Crime_.
> What gives "Kalvan" its particular sparkle is Calvin
> Morrison's rise to power as a transplanted one of us.
Yep. I think this is partly why _Sliders_ had some contemporary folks as their cross-timers.
I
realize John (and Roland Green) have taken him in a different
direction but I've always thought would be interesting if Calvin
figured out the Paratime Secret and, rather than kill his friend,
Verkan invited him to become a Paracop himself (because obviously he
can't go back to his original timeline). He'd be quite an asset in
the cross-time "cold war" with the Organization. . . .
Down Styphon!
David
--
"You know any kind of observation that doesn't contaminate the thing observed, professor?" - Tortha Karf (H. Beam Piper),
_Lord_Kalvan_of_Otherwhen_
~
|
|
Grimmoer
01-21-2010
05:14 UT
|
Like "Sliders"? When you take that much out of Piper's work, it ceases
to be Piper's work. After which, well, what's the point?
J&#E4;ck R&#FC;ssell
"Don't take life so serious, son.
It ain't nohow permanent."
-
Walt Kelly
< replied-to message removed by QT >
|
Jim "Rhino" Sparr  01-21-2010
04:02 UT
|
A Time Tunnel like series based on Paratime would fly on several levels,
great adventure, but one wonders how much Verkan and his culture would
be seen as heroes given their exploitation of the other timelines and
their general arrogance and complacency. What they fight most to do is
maintain their comfortable status quo. What gives "Kalvan" its
particular sparkle is Calvin Morrison's rise to power as a transplanted
one of us.
|
|
Jim Broshot
01-21-2010
03:40 UT
|
QT - David Johnson wrote:
> So, scale it back and make a series about the Paratime Police,
> with Verkan Vall as protagonist. (Calvin Morrison becomes
> just a guest star, perhaps in a two- or three-episode story
> arc.) Then the drama around the Paratime secret can be
> central to the storyline, providing the "hook" from one
> episode to the next.
Sort of like the old 60s series "Time Tunnel"?
Instead of jumping backwards and forwards in time, moving crosswise across time into the alternate paths of Paratime.
Jim Broshot
|
|
David Johnson
01-20-2010
05:55 UT
|
~
Jim "Rhino" Sparr wrote:
> Lord Kalvan of Otherwhere would be great,
[snip]
> The concept might be harder to sell than Little Fuzzy.
I think that _Kalvan_ would actually be better as part of a
television
(mini)series, much like the one discussed in "Crossroads of Destiny."
A big film about Kalvan's battle with Styphon's House-- even if only
in Nostor--would have trouble including the Paratime Police element.
Folks trying to keep track of medieval-esque
Ptosphes and
Chartiphon and Gormoth and Phlebon and Sarrask and Balthames and
Kaiphranos are simply going to be more confused by sci- fi scenes of
Verkan Vall and Tortha Karf.
So, scale it back and make a series
about the Paratime Police, with Verkan Vall as protagonist. (Calvin
Morrison becomes just a guest star, perhaps in a two- or three-episode
story arc.) Then the drama around the Paratime secret can be central
to the storyline, providing the "hook" from one episode to the next.
Down Styphon!
David
--
"I
remember, when I was just a kid, about a hundred and fifty years
ago--a hundred and thirty-nine, to be exact--I picked up a fellow on
the Fourth Level, just about where you're operating, and dragged him a
couple of hundred parayears. I went back to find him and return him
to his own time-line, but before I could locate him, he'd been
arrested
by the local authorities as a suspicious character, and got himself
shot trying to escape. I felt badly about that. . . ." - Tortha Karf,
"Police Operation"
~
|
|
Jay P Hailey
01-19-2010
09:01 UT
|
> --
> "A girl can punch any kind of a button a man can, and a lot of
> them knew what buttons to punch, and why." - Conn Maxwell (H.
> Beam Piper), _The_Cosmic_Computer_
> ~
Uuuuhhh,
doing a quick and dirty scan - I think Cosmiic computer would be the best bet
but we'd have to move away from Piper in some areas.
Merlin, and the myth of Merlin is the football. the Litchfield folk are our good guys
Pirates
are our bad guys. Make up band of villainous rogues that need to be
shot, and have them dog the Litchfield crew every step of the way.
It's too simple to hold a full movie for. Needs a flip
Piper
is talking about the faith people put in things - how people here
stories, convince themselves that the stories are true and then pursue
their "Grail" rather thann an actually solution to their problem
Conn
Maxwell runs a "Stone Soup" gag on them - holding the carrot of Merlin
up to get the Litchfield crew to do things that, coincidentally,
advance the cause of working civilization on Poictesme.
I have to reread it, I don't recall what the punch line in the novel is. Except that they found Merlin.
Okay
the flip is this - Merlin is the Antagonist. It is, indeed a planning
computer - and indeed represented the danger of blind faith and
centralized control.
The folks of Litchfield who are true
believers , handed Merlin, salute and do what Merlin says, convinced
that Merlin Knows best. Even if Merlin is just handing them "Fascism
101" on 3 X 5 cards as policy directives.
Ahh. The story in the front end is the same Poictesme is an old Federation Base against the System States Alliance.
When
the "Good Guys" Flip for bad guys, forcing our heroes to flee iinto
the wilderness, our heroes discover the truth - Poictesme was a System
States Base. Merlin is programmed to conquuer the Federation.
During
the Climactic battle of the war, the leaders of both sides realized
something hinky was going on and called off the war. Thee System States
people picked up and fled into unknown space. Travis and the
Federation didn't pursue them, as per agreement.
The Pirates
reveal that they are only semi murderous scum. Anything identified as a
Federation vehicle oor person gets attacked by remaiining automated
weapons implacements. All they have to do is grab and old Federation
IFF, put a timer on it and throw it on a target ship and then wait for
the explosions and fires to die down.
-*-
The Litchfield true believers become managers for Merlin as it tries to re-establish itself and return to it's mission
Conn
Maxwell and Sylvie Jaquemont have to lead Pirates into Merlin's central
brain to destroy it. Or Merlin's going to restart the System States
war.
We climax with an exciting Pirate Versus Kill-Bot battle.
Go
ahead and throw what ever Space Marine meets Pirates of the Caribbean
cliche you want in here. If the battle is choreographed well. the
actors annd stunt people are pretty and scantily clad, then it'll work
out okay.
In the end Kurt Fawzi Stands in front of the Main
housing shouting "I ddon't care what it says! It's Merlin! If Merlin
says it, that settles it! I've waited and believed my whole life and
now here it is! Now I know that I'll always be able to find out just
precisely what to do! The Future is now in control and flying
straight!"
And Maxwell says "Who wants their whole life mapped
oout? No surprises? Nothing new? I want uncertainty! I want tomorrow
to be hidden! I want to be surprised and then take that surprise and
make it something better!"
But in th End Pirate Chief shoots Fawzi and unplugs Merlin. He and his crew begin to break down the super computer.
Conn says "WTF?"
Pirate
Guy "Dude - this thing was just running Oppresion 2.0. I debugged 3.1
when I was in the army. This computer ain't that smart. But I can
covert it into the core of a beautiful casino network! People will play
with the shiny things and give me their money voluntarily. Much
easier than Piracy!"
the end.
|
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Lensman
01-18-2010
23:46 UT
|
QT - Jim Rhino Sparr wrote:
> Lord Kalvan of Otherwhere would be great, but the sets,
> costumes, and props, if done correctly would require new
> manufacture throughout, the "back acting flintlocks", for
> instance. American Civil War reenactors would have to be
> totally retrained and reequipped. English Civil War reenactors
> would be better, I think, but getting them to Pennsylvania
> locations would be expensive. The concept might be harder to
> sell than Little Fuzzy.
Live
re-enactors would be best, but are not absolutely necessary. The
armies could be created the way WETA created the orc armies for Peter
Jackson's "Lord of the Rings".
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clear ether!
Lensman
Visit the Incompleat Known Space Concordance at:
http://www.freewebs.com/knownspace/
|
Jim "Rhino" Sparr 01-18-2010
20:20 UT
|
In the wake of "Avatar", which I've seen (the effects are awesome),
Little Fuzzy would seem to me to have the most possibilities and
probably be most currently saleable as a screenplay.
Lord
Kalvan of Otherwhere would be great, but the sets, costumes, and props,
if done correctly would require new manufacture throughout, the "back
acting flintlocks", for instance. American Civil War reenactors would
have to be totally retrained and reequipped. English Civil War
reenactors would be better, I think, but getting them to Pennsylvania
locations would be expensive. The concept might be harder to sell than
Little Fuzzy.
|
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David Johnson
01-18-2010
15:19 UT
|
~
Glenn "Gilmoure" Amspaugh wrote:
> Bradbury didn't write any juveniles but some of his stories
> focused on kids.
I
think we may have overlooked the most obvious example of Beam's
writing about children: his Fuzzy yarns. Beam likely used his
experiences
of the children in his life as the basis for his Fuzzy
characterizations. I suspect that someone who knew him--and the
children he knew--well might recognize something of some of those kids
in his different Fuzzy characters.
Yeek!
David
--
"You
know, it's never a mistake to take a second look at anything that
everybody believes." - Rodney Maxwell (H. Beam Piper),
"Graveyard of Dreams"
~
|
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David Johnson
01-18-2010
15:12 UT
|
~
Jim "Rhino" Sparr wrote:
> It strikes me as odd that
> few major authors are known to have children or grandchildren.
> Any observations?
My
observation is that this thread starts to wander beyond our focus
here on Piper. (Please take another look at our discussion
guidelines
at the top of the discussion forum page.) Happy to expand on the
discussion of Beam's married--and divorced--life and his relationships
with the children in his life as described in John's biography (and
as recounted by Terry McGuire here) but expanding that discussion to
other sci-fi authors generally is a conversation for a different
forum.
Glad to have you back, Rhino, and to learn that you're
recovering from you recent stay in the hospital. So, what Piper yarn
do _you_ believe would make a great film?
Be well,
David
--
"Why not everybody make friend, have fun, make help, be good?" - Diamond Grego (H. Beam Piper), _Fuzzy_Sapiens_
~
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Gilmoure
01-18-2010
13:02 UT
|
Bradbury didn't write any juveniles but some of his stories focused on
kids. One of the Martian Chronicles (The New Martians?), Something
Wicked, and it seems like a few other short stories.
Gilmoure
On Jan 17, 2010, at 10:33 PM, QT - Jim Rhino Sparr wrote:
< replied-to message removed by QT >
|
Jim "Rhino" Sparr 01-18-2010
07:14 UT
|
By the way, sorry I've been absent so long, but I spent a little time in
the hospital. Thank God, however, besides being repugnant and
redolent, rhinos are resilient.
"You're the wrong guy, in the wrong place, at the wrong time!" "Story of my life......" -- Die Hard 2
|
Jim "Rhino" Sparr 01-18-2010
06:49 UT
|
After my last posting, it occurred to me that I know of NO major sci-fi
writers who were "fruitful and multiplied". I've got several offspring
and they have some that I spoil rotten, feed lots of sugar, and send
home, etc. It strikes me as odd that few major authors are known to
have children or grandchildren. Any observations?
|
Jim "Rhino" Sparr 01-18-2010
05:33 UT
|
Absolutely wonderful!!! People discussing story ideas. Love it.
To
whoever first raised it, Heinlein wrote "juveniles" because he had a
continuing contract to do so. Prior to "Stranger", these were his best
known works, including "Red Planet", "Tunnel in the Sky", and "Starman
Jones", etc. He also wrote material for "Boy's Life" and some girl's
magazines. Asimov authored the "Lucky Starr" series under a pseudonym.
Piper never wrote kiddy stories, probably he had nothing to say to
preteens that he couldn't say as well to adults, and didn't care to
cheapen his product. He never wrote anything like "All You Zombies", so
he didn't have to worry about it.
I wasn't aware that Bradbury
did juveniles, but I've read him about as often as I read Harlan
Ellison, Marx, or Hitler. I like heroic sci-fi, Piper, Heinlein,
Laumer, Anderson, Pournelle, etc., not crying in your beer stuff.
"Yippee ky yayy.............." --John Mc Clain in "Die Hard"
|
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David Johnson
01-17-2010
04:21 UT
|
~
Jon Crocker wrote:
> By the way, when the Colonel blew up the Keegark Residency when
> his last defenses fell, did they build them with a basement full
> of explosives? I don't know if they would have had much time to
> jury-rig something from whatever was on hand in the middle of
> desperate combat.
Given
that there doesn't even seem to be any discussion of any of the other
Residencies being blown up I'm guessing it has to be some sort of
jury-rigging. The crater from the explosion was as big as that of the
Geek nitro plant so it must have been a lot of explosives but how
they came to have them in the Residency is a mystery.
Znidd Suddabit!
David
--
"Naturally.
Foxx Travis would expect a soul to be carried in a holster." - Miles
Gilbert (H. Beam Piper), "Oomphel in the Sky"
~
|
|
David Johnson
01-16-2010
04:57 UT
|
~
Gilmoure wrote:
> Piper doesn't seem to have shown much interest in younger
> characters like Heinlein, Asimov, and Bradbury did.
>
> Now, that could be an interesting approach to understanding
> Piper; he doesn't write about any younger characters (not
> counting Fuzzies) except for the kid from Four Day Planet. And
> even there, he was on the edge of going to college.
I had the sense that Walt Boyd was about sixteen. . . .
Monster Ho!
David
--
"We
talk glibly about ten to the hundredth power, but emotionally we
still count, 'One, Two, Three, Many.'" - Otto Harkaman (H. Beam
Piper), _Space_Viking_
~
|
|
David Johnson
01-16-2010
04:54 UT
|
~
Gilmoure wrote:
> Hey, there's an idea: space travelers might start carrying
> personal clocks to keep track of their real/lived ages. Would be
> useful for medical treatments and such. Totally non-Piper so
> I'll stop here but something to think about for the writers out
> there.
A
neat piece of tech. True, Beam never mentioned anything like it but I
do seem to remember Jack Holloway mentioning something about not
being sure about his age because he'd traveled so much on
hyperships.
I think you could reasonably assume the need for this sort of device
from that reference. Jack Holloway might have no need for such a
device but surely other Federation citizens might.
Yeek!
David
--
"Why not everybody make friend, have fun, make help, be good?" - Diamond Grego (H. Beam Piper), _Fuzzy_Sapiens_
~
|
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David Johnson
01-16-2010
04:38 UT
|
~
Mike Robertson wrote:
> My read
> of the story put Paula Quinton between 25-30 and Carlos Von
> Schlichten in his late 30's to early 40's. So, somewhere
> between 17-18 years and just less than 10.
Von Schlichten has been on Uller fifteen years, having left
Federation
service as a captain. I think that puts him at least in his late
40's or early 50's which makes him something like a quarter of a
century older than Quinton. . . .
But he's also a pseudo-Nazi, dang it! With his shaved head and creepy monocle. . . .
Znidd Suddabit!
David
--
"Heinlein can do what he likes. I prefer to keep my heroine
_virgo_intacto_ until the end." - H. Beam Piper
~
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David Johnson
01-16-2010
04:25 UT
|
~
Gilmoure wrote:
> but maybe go one further
> and show how Con or Sylvie wired in a connection/back door to
> Merlin. Leave that has the hanger at the end of the movie, to
> hook further movies on.
I like it: "The Federation Strikes Back!"
Remember Ashmodai! Remember Belphegor!
David,
--
"At
the time of his death, H. Beam Piper was writing at the top of his
form and certainly with the best of his contemporaries." - John. F.
Carr, Introduction to _Empire_
~
|
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David Johnson
01-16-2010
04:22 UT
|
~
Jack "Grimmoer" Russell wrote:
> I think the simple addition of booby traps and a few killer
> robots (non-humaniod wheeled models) would do plenty for the
> action. Why leave the abandoned goodies undefended? They find
> an ammo dump and have to disarm the booby traps and disable the
> killer robots. Merlin's auto defences would be more
> sophisticated and some sort of abort code programmed in. Maybe
> even a self destruct that has to be shut-down.
I like it! It's also a nice expansion of the basic premise: surely a super-computer would have super-automated defenses.
> As for the
> size, well, even with what we know about computer technology
> today it would take a LOT of computer to predict the movement
> of billions of people on dozens (hundreds?) of planets. That
> means a lot of programming, hence wall-to-wall programming
> stations.
I believe I've suggested a different solution here previously. Terrohuman history is one in which atomic warfare--and thus
electromagnetic
pulse--is much more commonplace than in our own experience. I can
imagine a time, early in the Atomic Era, when electronics were built
with extensive physical shielding meant to keep them operating in the
midst of atomic battle. Such shielding becomes the norm in Terrohuman
electronics design and is "locked in"-- like the QWERTY keyboard--long
after it is no longer necessary
(perhaps aided by the fact that the advent of contragravity makes the miniaturization of missile components less necessary).
By
the time of the System States War such shielding is no longer
necessary in any practical sense but it remains the standard practice
in electronics manufacture. Thus, the most powerful electronic device
ever will have the most extensive physical shielding ever, thereby
making it the largest device of its kind ever.
> When they
> finally reach the command center, with the obligatory 72" big
> screen, the image in the creen should be a CGI version of Piper
> in a general's uniform (hey, it should look like SOMEBODY, and
> it is a military device so it makes sense a soldier type avatar
> would be used.)
Oooh,
I like it! Of course, we already have an image of Travis, of sorts.
He's the guy with the captain's bars on his collar in this
illustration from the original publication of "Oomphel in the Sky" by
Bernklau:
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/20649/20649-h/images/illus-035.png
Speak on, Grandfather of Grandfathers.
David
--
"We
talk glibly about ten to the hundredth power, but emotionally we
still count, 'One, Two, Three, Many.'" - Otto Harkaman (H. Beam
Piper), _Space_Viking_
~
|
|
David Johnson
01-16-2010
03:56 UT
|
~
Jim Broshot wrote:
> I've always liked OMNILINGUAL but it wouldn't fly as a movie.
> Although its set on Mars, the Martians are all deceased and so
> you don't have monster lurking in the depths of the ruins, ready
> to pounce on unwary Terrans.
Yep.
For "Omnilingual" to work you'd have to have some sort of impending
disaster which can only be diverted by deciphering the Martian
language. With the Martians themselves extinct that would have to be
some sort of natural disaster, or perhaps some sort of accident to the
Terran artificial life-support systems that can only be repaired
through resort to a Martian artifact.
"You're reading Martian!"
David
--
"Do
you know which books to study, and which ones not to bother with? Or
which ones to read first, so that what you read in the others will be
comprehensible to you? That's what they'll give you [at
university] on Terra. The tools, which you don't have now, for
educating yourself." - Bish Ware (H. Beam Piper), _Four-Day_Planet_ ~
|
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Lensman
01-15-2010
19:29 UT
|
QT - Gilmoure wrote:
> Now, that could be an interesting approach to understanding
> Piper; he doesn't write about any younger characters (not
> counting Fuzzies) except for the kid from Four Day Planet. And
> even there, he was on the edge of going to college. Maybe Piper
> didn't have a happy or noteworthy childhood and didn't feel the
> desire to bring that in to his writing?
Stories
with children/teens as protagonists are very nearly always aimed at
children/teens. Piper didn't write children's stories.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clear ether!
Lensman
Visit the Incompleat Known Space Concordance at:
http://www.freewebs.com/knownspace/
|
|
Lensman
01-15-2010
19:27 UT
|
QT - Grimmoer wrote:
> This talk of age differance has me wondering about Kalvan and Rylla.
> Kalvan had to be in his 30s to have graduated high school & college
> (2 to 4 year degree) served in Korea (2 to 3 years) then joined the
> police when he got back. Realistically, these things don't happen
> bang-bang-bang. You take a summer off before starting college,
> graduate, kick around a bit before deciding to join the military,
> then take some decompression time when you get back before deciding
> to take another job where people shoot at you. Rylla, on the other
> hand, would likely be very young. In medieval societies a woman was
> marriagable when she hit child-bearing age, say 13 or 14. Rylla
> hadn't yet been married off, though she was expected to marry Kalvan
> dropped in. My guess is that she was barely out of puberty when she
> got hitched to Lord Kalvan putting, what, 15 to 20 years between
> them?
Farm girls would normally be considered "husband high" in their
mid-teens,
altho 13 is probably at the low end of the range. I think 14-15 would
have been a more normal age. But Rylla was an aristocrat, and would
have been more likely to marry at an older age; say, 17-18 or so. And
as headstrong as she was, it's not surprising that she had not yet
accepted any suitor's proposal.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
She was a girl, twenty, give or take a year or so...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
--/Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen/ chapter 4
Which
is not to say that Kalvan wasn't older. It hasn't been that long even
in our own society since it was *normal* for the husband to be a few
years older than the wife, and quite unusual for the wife to be older
than the husband.
Do we know that Morrison went to college before
joining the army? Perhaps he attended afterwards, on the G.I. bill.
Four years college, four years military, two years in the police would
put his age at 28. Not everyone takes a year off to tour Europe or
whatever. The Korean War ended in 1953, and Morrison became Kalvan in
1964. So assuming he was 18 in 1953, that means he would be 29 in
1964, when he was caught in that "cross-time flying saucer". Of
course, that's the bare minimum assuming he volunteered for the army
right out of high school, so he could be a few years older. But
perhaps as little as 8-12 years separate Kalvan and Rylla's ages.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clear ether!
Lensman
Visit the Incompleat Known Space Concordance at:
http://www.freewebs.com/knownspace/
|
|
Grimmoer
01-15-2010
17:57 UT
|
Hmmm...I guess this makes Piper the "Grandfather that Never Was." Pity he never had any children of his own.
J&#E4;ck R&#FC;ssell
"Don't take life so serious, son.
It ain't nohow permanent."
-
Walt Kelly
< replied-to message removed by QT >
|
|
Grimmoer
01-15-2010
17:55 UT
|
Then the real question is "How old is Kalvan?"
J&#E4;ck R&#FC;ssell
"Don't take life so serious, son.
It ain't nohow permanent."
-
Walt Kelly
< replied-to message removed by QT >
|
|
otherwhen@aol.com
01-15-2010
17:49 UT
|
In answer to your question, it's much better for me if you order the book directly from Pequod.
Thanks for asking,
John
Thanks John,
I really need to pick up your book on Beam.
Gilmoure
ps; Better to order from you/Pequod Press direct or from Amazon. What gets you most return?
|
|
Terry McGuire
01-15-2010
17:47 UT
|
As John says, Beam did treat my brother and I as little adults. He
actually listened to you. In his house he encouraged you to look at and
touch the toys like his robot that walked down the slant board and his
cannon. Being "army brats" we would NEVER have touched a gun without
permission and always treated them as if they were loaded. We could take
the sword cane out, and when he got a new gun, he always showed it to
us and explained why he bought it. I am sure this was true for other
children
Terry McGuire
< replied-to message removed by QT >
|
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Gilmoure
01-15-2010
17:43 UT
|
Thanks John,
I really need to pick up your book on Beam.
Gilmoure
ps; Better to order from you/Pequod Press direct or from Amazon. What gets you most return?
On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 10:30 AM, QT - otherwhen@aol.com <
qtopic-42-tnfVKeAH3s4T@quicktopic.com> wrote:
>
< replied-to message removed by QT >
|
|
otherwhen@aol.com
01-15-2010
17:30 UT
|
RYLLA'S REAL AGE
Hmm. I was wondering if this was ever going to come up...
I've
always assumed, based on marriage customs in similar late Medieval
cultures, that Rylla was a teenager between 15 and 16 when she met
Kalvan.
Of course, one could always hedge this young age because
the Zarthani typically didn't name their children (their Name Day
"christening" becoming their 1st birthday) until they were 2 or 3
years old. (Kalvan, of course, is an exception and names his
daughter, Demia, at birth.) This would make Rylla 17 or 18...which I
suspect is the age Piper would have given her if pressed by an
interviewer.
Actually, that medieval marriage age thing isn't exactly true.
The middle ages lasted for 1100 years or so and spanned all of
Europe. At different times and different ages, marriage customs
changed. No way to say just how Hostigos usually did things, as
Piper didn't say. Still, from the way he wrote the character,
she sounds like a young woman, not girl, who's used to running
the house for her father and working with adults. And from
Piper's work, I'd guess she wouldn't have been younger than 18.
Piper doesn't seem to have shown much interest in younger
characters like Heinlein, Asimov, and Bradbury did.
Actually,
Beam had a real fondness for children. And the adults I've talked
with, who actually knew Beam as a child, absolutely "loved" him. He
treated most children like little adults, which was much appreciated.
In fact, I've NEVER met anyone so beloved in the memories as Beam was
by those now grownup 'children.'
As far as Beam's own
childhood goes, I suspect it was a good one. His parents (who had him
late in life) treated Beam like a little prince. In his letters, he
was very fond of both his mother and his dad. Piper's dad, Herbert,
taught him how to hunt and they enjoyed many good times camping and
hunting, even into his 20s. He also lived with his mother until she
was in her 90s and she cooked and kept the house for him. As far as
writing about children, like most adventure writers, Beam was more
interested in adults and their feats of derring-do and travel...
John F. Carr
Hostigos.com
Now, that could be an interesting approach to understanding
Piper; he doesn't write about any younger characters (not
counting Fuzzies) except for the kid from Four Day Planet. And
even there, he was on the edge of going to college. Maybe Piper
didn't have a happy or noteworthy childhood and didn't feel the
desire to bring that in to his writing?
Gilmoure
|
|
Grimmoer
01-15-2010
17:18 UT
|
Or Piper didn't have enough experience with children as an adult to feel
comfortable writing about them. Lolita Lurkin had only one sound
bite, and that by proxy. Piper had no children of his own, nor any
nieces and nephews. I could imagine him terrorizing the local kids but
not socializing with them. I suspect the only real contact he had
with children would have been through hjis married friends. Imagine a
kid in Piper's house. "Hey! Put that down! It might be loaded."
J&#E4;ck R&#FC;ssell
"Don't take life so serious, son.
It ain't nohow permanent."
-
Walt Kelly
< replied-to message removed by QT >
|
|
Gilmoure
01-15-2010
17:03 UT
|
Actually, that medieval marriage age thing isn't exactly true. The
middle ages lasted for 1100 years or so and spanned all of Europe. At
different times and different ages, marriage customs changed. No way to
say just how Hostigos usually did things, as Piper didn't say. Still,
from the way he wrote the character, she sounds like a young woman, not
girl, who's used to running the house for her father and working with
adults. And from Piper's work, I'd guess she wouldn't have been younger
than 18. Piper doesn't seem to have shown much interest in younger
characters like Heinlein, Asimov, and Bradbury did.
Now, that
could be an interesting approach to understanding Piper; he doesn't
write about any younger characters (not counting Fuzzies) except for the
kid from Four Day Planet. And even there, he was on the edge of going
to college. Maybe Piper didn't have a happy or noteworthy childhood and
didn't feel the desire to bring that in to his writing?
Gilmoure
On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 9:42 AM, QT - Grimmoer <
qtopic-42-tnfVKeAH3s4T@quicktopic.com> wrote:
>
< replied-to message removed by QT >
|
|
Grimmoer
01-15-2010
16:42 UT
|
This talk of age differance has me wondering about Kalvan and Rylla.
Kalvan had to be in his 30s to have graduated high school & college
(2 to 4 year degree) served in Korea (2 to 3 years) then joined the
police when he got back. Realistically, these things don't happen
bang-bang-bang. You take a summer off before starting college,
graduate, kick around a bit before deciding to join the military, then
take some decompression time when you get back before deciding to take
another job where people shoot at you. Rylla, on the other hand, would
likely be very young. In medieval societies a woman was marriagable
when she hit child-bearing age, say 13 or 14. Rylla hadn't yet been
married off, though she was expected to marry Kalvan dropped in. My
guess is that she was barely out of puberty when she got hitched to
Lord Kalvan putting, what, 15 to 20 years between them?
All hail Lord Kalvan the dirty old man!
J&#E4;ck R&#FC;ssell
"Don't take life so serious, son.
It ain't nohow permanent."
-
Walt Kelly
< replied-to message removed by QT >
|
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Gilmoure
01-15-2010
16:27 UT
|
Yup, my wife is 10 years older than me and no one looks askance at us.
Still,
with Piper's THFH, and dilation effects from space travel, it might be
hard to really know how old someone is, other than based on their
personal clock.
Hey, there's an idea: space travelers might start
carrying personal clocks to keep track of their real/lived ages. Would
be useful for medical treatments and such. Totally non-Piper so I'll
stop here but something to think about for the writers out there.
Gilmoure
On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 9:10 AM, QT - Mike Robertson <
qtopic-42-tnfVKeAH3s4T@quicktopic.com> wrote:
>
< replied-to message removed by QT >
|
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Mike Robertson
01-15-2010
16:10 UT
|
David Johnson wrote;
"Paula Quinton has always been one of my favorite Terrohuman
characters--I
think mostly because Miles Gilbert got one of her fellowships--but her
romance with Von Schlicten always seemed sort of creepy to me, and not
just because he seemed so much older than her. . . ."
I'm not
what age difference you think is creepy David. My read of the story put
Paula Quinton between 25-30 and Carlos Von Schlichten in his late 30's
to early 40's. So, somewhere between 17-18 years and just less than 10.
That wouldn't have been an unusual age difference at the time Piper
was writing. Even now I have several friends who have 12-14 years
between them and their wives.
Mike Robertson
|
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David Johnson
01-15-2010
03:40 UT
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~
David "Lensman" Sooby wrote:
> scenario is being greeted with such enthusiasm. Maybe the
> scenario would make a good action film, but /The Cosmic
> Computer/ is not first and foremost an action story; it's first
> and foremost a Cargo Cult story in a stfnal setting.
I
understand this was John's take and I accept those elements but
_Computer_ to me has always seemed like a story about the coming
collapse of the Federation. It's the ultimate post-apocalyptic
survivalist yarn. . . .
> Of
> course, having the Good Guys at the end actually *find* Merlin
> alters that significantly-- and Piper is
> certainly responsible for that--
Yes,
but in the earlier version of the story there is no Merlin--or
"Brain" as it is called there--there is still the idea of recovery on
Poictesme from the decline of the Federation that has already begun
with the end of the System States War.
> but to give the story a
> slam-bang ending dilutes the point of the story even farther.
> Or to put it another way: Maybe an "action climax" would make a
> good movie, but it would no longer be the story of /The Cosmic
> Computer/.
You may be right, but I can't imagine a Piper yarn making it to the big screen at this point any other way.
Remember Ashmodai! Remember Belphegor!
David
--
"You
know, it's never a mistake to take a second look at anything that
everybody believes." - Rodney Maxwell (H. Beam Piper),
"Graveyard of Dreams"
~
|
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David Johnson
01-15-2010
03:33 UT
|
~
Jim Broshot wrote:
>> show the fighting around Uller - handsome young Lieutenant
>> Hero and his gal. &#A0;Oh, wow, Lt. Hero just got a plum
>> posting at the Keegark Residency...
>
> You already have a love interest in ULLER UPRISING. Why clutter
> things up?
Paula Quinton has always been one of my favorite Terrohuman
characters--I
think mostly because Miles Gilbert got one of her fellowships--but
her romance with Von Schlicten always seemed sort of creepy to me, and
not just because he seemed so much older than her. . . .
Remember Ashmodai! Remember Belphegor!
David
--
"A
girl can punch any kind of a button a man can, and a lot of them knew
what buttons to punch, and why." - Conn Maxwell (H. Beam Piper),
_The_Cosmic_Computer_
~
|
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David Johnson
01-15-2010
03:28 UT
|
~
Glenn "Gilmoure" Amspaugh wrote:
> Yeah, that's where I think, for a movie version, somehow (maybe
> out at Navy planet), they find info on approaching invasion and
> realize that, instead of just being a distraction for 'older and
> wiser' heads, they now really do need Merlin, at least to the
> point of activating Poictesme system defenses.
I'm kind of taken by Jack's idea of a battle with Merlin's own
automated
defenses but if we went with the course you've laid out here perhaps
the invading off-worlders are not proto-barbarians--we really don't
have any evidence of that yet in _Computer_--are instead an advance
unit of Federation forces. It might make the ultimate solution of
hiding/disguising/sabotaging Merlin make more sense when the Maxwells
understand that the defeated Federation forces will be back again. . .
.
> Now, if there was just an easy way to make this on a home
> computer. But who am I kidding. I'm finding it tiring to help my
> daughter put together her lego figures web comic and that's just
> three pages long.
I think, in the end, this is time much better spent. ;)
Yeek!
David
--
"A
girl can punch any kind of a button a man can, and a lot of them knew
what buttons to punch, and why." - Conn Maxwell (H. Beam Piper),
_The_Cosmic_Computer_
~
|
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Gilmoure
01-14-2010
15:24 UT
|
Heh, Piper as middle age Fox Travis. Like it!
I suppose, we could
have the regular CC ending, with just a few folks finding out how the
Federation is on non-stop decline and then decide to close up (destroy
all access to) the real Merlin and just fake output like in the book but
maybe go one further and show how Con or Sylvie wired in a
connection/back door to Merlin. Leave that has the hanger at the end of
the movie, to hook further movies on. The decline and fall of the
Federation would be something to see. From a distance. Wearing
collapsium plated underwear.
G
On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 7:59 AM, QT - Grimmoer <
qtopic-42-tnfVKeAH3s4T@quicktopic.com> wrote:
>
< replied-to message removed by QT >
|
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Grimmoer
01-14-2010
14:59 UT
|
I think the simple addition of booby traps and a few killer robots
(non-humaniod wheeled models) would do plenty for the action. Why leave
the abandoned goodies undefended? They find an ammo dump and have to
disarm the booby traps and disable the killer robots. Merlin's auto
defences would be more sophisticated and some sort of abort code
programmed in. Maybe even a self destruct that has to be shut-down.
As for the size, well, even with what we know about computer technology
today it would take a LOT of computer to predict the movement of
billions of people on dozens (hundreds?) of planets. That means a lot
of programming, hence wall-to-wall programming stations. Even if the
computer itself is no bigger than a breadbox, the work stations of all
the people typing in the input (vocal input would be slower and
messier, especially with a hundred people all talking at once) would
take hundreds of work stations netwoked together. Then there is the
power supply (nuclear, no doubt), networking setups, multiple
redundancies in case of power surge/failure, a bank of hard-drives with
multiple back-ups, monitoring hook-ups ( Merlin would need to be able
to monitor events in the absence of human input), storage areas for
replacement parts, maintenance robots, air treatment (gotta keep those
circuits dry, cool and dust-free) and access panels for upgrades (there
would be many even in one year, let alone the many years it would take
to program this beast.) The floor space for people and machines to
work in alone would account for much of the area Piper allotted for the
computer in TCC.
I would have the proagonist find a flash-stick
type device in one of the salvage operations that he would wear on a
chain (have tech jewelry fashionable among his people) which would turn
out to have the command code necessary to take control of Merlin. I
like the giant laser to get inside, only to discover a secret panel
elsewhere that made the laser unnecessary. Then the group works their
way to the command center through a gammit of booby traps and killer
'bots. This ups the action while staying fairly true to Piper's
original vision. When they finally reach the command center, with the
obligatory 72" big screen, the image in the creen should be a CGI
version of Piper in a general's uniform (hey, it should look like
SOMEBODY, and it is a military device so it makes sense a soldier type
avatar would be used.)
Howzat?
J&#E4;ck R&#FC;ssell
"Don't take life so serious, son.
It ain't nohow permanent."
-
Walt Kelly
< replied-to message removed by QT >
|
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Jim Broshot
01-14-2010
06:18 UT
|
On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 12:09 AM, QT - Lensman
<qtopic-42-tnfVKeAH3s4T@quicktopic.com> wrote:
> Or to put it &#A0;another way: Maybe an "action climax" would make a
> good movie, but it &#A0;would no longer be the story of /The Cosmic
> Computer/.
COSMIC
COMPUTER is one of my favorite Piper stories but, despite the action,
it sort ends not with a bang but a whimper. No rousing climax when the
sacred relic is found like in RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK or LAURA CROFT
TOMB RAIDER. That's why I think ULLER UPRISING would
appeal more to a Hollywood type with an unlimited budget, lots of action and a really big climax.
I've
always liked OMNILINGUAL but it wouldn't fly as a movie. Although its
set on Mars, the Martians are all deceased and so you don't have monster
lurking in the depths of the ruins, ready to pounce on unwary Terrans.
Jim Broshot
|
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Lensman
01-14-2010
06:09 UT
|
QT - Jim Broshot wrote:
>> Yeah, having Merlin participate in its own defense would be a
>> nice &#A0; touch.
>
> Sounds more like the computer in Heinlein's MOON IS A HARSH
> MISTRESS.
I
hadn't thought of that, but regardless, I'm distressed that my
scenario is being greeted with such enthusiasm. Maybe the scenario
would make a good action film, but /The Cosmic Computer/ is not first
and foremost an action story; it's first and foremost a Cargo Cult story
in a stfnal setting. Of course, having the Good Guys at the end
actually *find* Merlin alters that significantly-- and Piper is
certainly
responsible for that-- but to give the story a slam-bang ending
dilutes the point of the story even farther. Or to put it another way:
Maybe an "action climax" would make a good movie, but it would no
longer be the story of /The Cosmic Computer/.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clear ether!
Lensman
Visit the Incompleat Known Space Concordance at:
http://www.freewebs.com/knownspace/
|
|
|
Spam deleted by QuickTopic 10-28-2012 07:16
|
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Jim Broshot
01-14-2010
05:43 UT
|
On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 10:38 PM, QT - David Johnson
<qtopic-42-tnfVKeAH3s4T@quicktopic.com> wrote:
hipyard are secretly &#A0;agents for one or more of the "Destroy
> Yeah, having Merlin participate in its own defense would be a
> nice &#A0; touch.
Sounds more like the computer in Heinlein's MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS.
Jim Broshot
|
Jon Crocker 01-14-2010
05:08 UT
|
Wow, lots of great ideas.
Maybe I'll change my mind, start off
with Uller Uprising, as long as the cgi holds. Introduce a couple minor
characters to show the fighting around Uller - handsome young
Lieutenant Hero and his gal. Oh, wow, Lt. Hero just got a plum posting
at the Keegark Residency...
By the way, when the Colonel blew
up the Keegark Residency when his last defenses fell, did they build
them with a basement full of explosives? I don't know if they would
have had much time to jury-rig something from whatever was on hand in
the middle of desperate combat.
|
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David Johnson
01-14-2010
04:38 UT
|
~
Lensman wrote:
>> Conn and Sylvie trying to reprogram Merlin while
>> Force Command Duplicate is being blown to bits by atom bombs
>> gives you the perfect Hollywood climactic scene.
>
> Okay. Turns out a few of those young men and women trained to
> be techs who are restoring one or more ships in the giant
> shipyard are secretly agents for one or more of the "Destroy
> Merlin!" factions. They steal the first ship to be made
> operational, and bring it in and start hammering away at Force
> Command Duplicate with the ship's nukes.
Something
like that. They don't even have to steal the ship. There were
clearly Merlin-haters rousting about in the Badlands. Just pump up
their capabilities to make a credible foe for Zareff's defenders.
> The Good Guys have to
> hold off the attack long enuff to program Merlin to come up
> with a battle plan to destroy the ship with inferior weapons.
Yeah, having Merlin participate in its own defense would be a nice touch.
Remember Ashmodai! Remember Belphegor!
David
--
"This is our most desperate hour. Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi; you're my only hope." - Princess Leia, _Star_Wars_IV:_A_New_Hope_
~
|
|
David Johnson
01-14-2010
04:35 UT
|
~
David "Lensman" Sooby wrote:
>> Isn't that sort of what happens with the Ark of the Covenant in
>> _Raiders_? It's somewhat different because our protagonist,
>> Conn Maxwell, is _part_ of the secrecy but the idea is still
>> the same.
>
> Well, yes and no. Yes the fate of the Ark is similar, but no
> it's not at all the same anti-climax.
I
understand there needs to be a more action-packed climax (hence my
idea about Force Command Duplicate being attacked by the anti-Merlin
crowd while Conn and Sylvie are trying to find Merlin). My point was
merely that it should be possible to end the film with knowledge of
Merlin's predictions for the Federation being suppressed.
Remember Ashmodai! Remember Belphegor!
David
--
"A
girl can punch any kind of a button a man can, and a lot of them knew
what buttons to punch, and why." - Conn Maxwell (H. Beam Piper),
_The_Cosmic_Computer_
~
|
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Gilmoure
01-12-2010
19:16 UT
|
Yeah, that's where I think, for a movie version, somehow (maybe out at
Navy planet), they find info on approaching invasion and realize that,
instead of just being a distraction for 'older and wiser' heads, they
now really do need Merlin, at least to the point of activating Poictesme
system defenses. You then have the race to the badlands with the final
battle against Blackie Pearls (yeah, I'm having him and a bunch of his
men survive the first battle and he's hiding out near Merlin plateau in
some kind of heavily equipped guard post. Take that meddling Hollywood
execs!), fighting off his men who are attacking the folks running the
Thing, cutting through just in time to hit the big green button and
'raise shields' (or activate hidden robot gun boats in the asteroids).
Now,
if there was just an easy way to make this on a home computer. But who
am I kidding. I'm finding it tiring to help my daughter put together her
lego figures web comic and that's just three pages long. Who knows,
maybe she'll be the one to make it, when she's older.
G
On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 11:58 AM, QT - Lensman <
qtopic-42-tnfVKeAH3s4T@quicktopic.com> wrote:
> You can be sure that if Hollywood green-lit TCC for the FX
> extravaganza it should be, they'd change the ending-- a lot.
> Can you imagine the end of "Avatar" if it was just a few
> representatives of the natives sitting down with the heads of
> the Terran military to work out a peace treaty, instead of the
> climactic big battle? Rather disappointing after everything
> leading up to it, innit?
>
>
|
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Lensman
01-12-2010
19:15 UT
|
QT - David Johnson wrote:
> If I were doing the film rather than having the climax be of the
> silly "Thing" cutting its way through Merlin's collapsium carapace
> I could instead have Force Command Duplicate under a more
> substantive anti-Merlin attack which is truly pressing Col.
> Zareff's defenders. Conn and Sylvie trying to reprogram Merlin while
> Force Command Duplicate is being blown to bits by atom bombs gives
> you the perfect Hollywood climactic scene.
Okay.
Turns out a few of those young men and women trained to be techs who
are restoring one or more ships in the giant shipyard are secretly
agents for one or more of the "Destroy Merlin!" factions. They steal
the first ship to be made operational, and bring it in and start
hammering away at Force Command Duplicate with the ship's nukes. The
Good Guys have to hold off the attack long enuff to program Merlin to
come up with a battle plan to destroy the ship with inferior weapons.
"The
target area is only two meters wide. It's a small thermal exhaust
port, right below the main port. The shaft leads directly to the ship's
reactor system. Only a precise hit will set up a chain reaction. The
shaft is ray-shielded, so you'll have to use proton torpedoes."
Oops, wrong movie.
:)
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clear ether!
Lensman
Visit the Incompleat Known Space Concordance at:
http://www.freewebs.com/knownspace/
|
|
Lensman
01-12-2010
18:58 UT
|
QT - David Johnson wrote:
>> Well, trying to get folks to understand the idea that a tool
>> like Merlin can't be used openly but has to controlled by a
>> select group, secretly.
>
> Isn't that sort of what happens with the Ark of the Covenant in
> _Raiders_? It's somewhat different because our protagonist,
> Conn Maxwell, is _part_ of the secrecy but the idea is still
> the same.
Well,
yes and no. Yes the fate of the Ark is similar, but no it's not at
all the same anti-climax. In "Raiders" we already *had* an enormous
climax, with the Finger of God striking down all the Nazis in a blazing,
shattering display of fiery special effects. The "We warehoused it"
bit is the epilogue, not the climax of the film.
In /The Cosmic
Computer/, the climax consists of a brief tussle with an apparent
madman, somebody says they found and disarmed a nuclear bomb, then the
rest is talking heads. As a book, it works fine. As the climax to a
movie which up to that point was filled with gunplay, blazing
explosions, mad runaway robots, and entire landscapes full of giant
spaceships, it's more than slightly a letdown.
You can be sure
that if Hollywood green-lit TCC for the FX extravaganza it should be,
they'd change the ending-- a lot. Can you imagine the end of "Avatar"
if it was just a few representatives of the natives sitting down with
the heads of the Terran military to work out a peace treaty, instead of
the climactic big battle? Rather disappointing after everything
leading up to it, innit?
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clear ether!
Lensman
Visit the Incompleat Known Space Concordance at:
http://www.freewebs.com/knownspace/
|
|
Lensman
01-12-2010
18:46 UT
|
QT - David Johnson wrote:
> When we cut from the smiling heroes on the dais to starscape in the
> movie theater that first time [at the end of "Star Wars"] we had no
> idea of what was to come. Sure, we may have been wondering what
> happened to Darth Vader spinning away in his special TIE fighter, but
> as the credits rolled we thought the Rebels had _won_.
>
> We don't have that sense at the end of _Kalvan_. Partly because of
> the musings of Verkan and Tortha, we know there is still King
> Kaiphranos, and Styphon's House beyond him.
Precisely.
And if we omit that from the story, it sure feels like a solid
victory! Save it for the sequel; if there is one, use that as the
beginning of the film, to instill anew an ominous sense of impending
doom.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clear ether!
Lensman
Visit the Incompleat Known Space Concordance at:
http://www.freewebs.com/knownspace/
|
Mike Robertson 01-12-2010
05:12 UT
|
I still think Little Fuzzy would be the easiest Piper story to make into
a movie because it would interest the most people. I gave the story to
two girlfriends who wanted to know why I read so much SF. They both
loved it. It's got courtroom drama, a love story (that wouldn't be as
chaste as Piper wrote it) and, of course, cute furry creatures.
Mike Robertson
|
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David Johnson
01-12-2010
04:55 UT
|
~
Gilmoure wrote:
> I guess you'd have to
> go past the folks agreeing to keep Merlin secret and on to how
> it saved Poictesme. Maybe tie in having the Navy ship yards
> available as well but not sure how to show that. Or have it that
> they need to find the computer in order to head off sudden
> collapse. Maybe proto-Space Vikings are about to invade and they
> need Merlin to coordinate defense or some such
I
think you've gottent to the nub of the issue: the truly interesting
story from _Cosmic_Computer_ is what comes _next_. The sequel is the
more cinematically exciting story.
> Still, there's lots of cool imagery from CC that I'd love to see
> put on film or even still imaged (any good digital artists out
> there?). The Luke Skywalker looking kid returning to his dusty
> (long shots down the valley with a dusty haze at sunset, over
> the terraces) town, his Dad showing off the recon speeder, the
> battle around the volcano, and exploring the ghost navy planet;
> they'd all be cool.
Don't forget the silly fight with the maintenance robots on Koschei. You could have the kiddies giggling with that!
David
--
"Can robot lips do this?" Thalassa, _Star_Trek_, "Return to Tomorrow" ~
|
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David Johnson
01-12-2010
04:47 UT
|
~
Lensman wrote:
>> I suppose you could also "adapt" the search so that Merlin's size
>> is not so central to it having been hidden. Instead of all the
>> prospecting _at_ Duplicate Force Command you could instead
>> show more of it across the Badlands (as was the case for all the
>> non-Maxwell prospectors).
>
> Upon further reflection, I think /The Cosmic Computer/ is not a
> good candidate for a movie. The ending is, cinematically,
> anti-climactic-- all talking heads and no explosions or
> gunplay.
I
think Glenn may be on to something here. If I were doing the film
rather than having the climax be of the silly "Thing" cutting its way
through Merlin's collapsium carapace I could instead have Force
Command Duplicate under a more substantive anti-Merlin attack which is
truly pressing Col. Zareff's defenders. Conn and Sylvie trying to
reprogram Merlin while Force Command Duplicate is being blown to bits
by atom bombs gives you the perfect Hollywood climactic scene.
Remember Ashmodai! Remember Belphegor!
David
--
"You
either went on to the inevitable catastrophe, or you realized, in
time, that nuclear armament and nationalism cannot exist together on
the same planet, and it is easier to banish a habit of thought than a
piece of knowledge." - H. Beam Piper, _Uller_Uprising_
~
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David Johnson
01-12-2010
04:36 UT
|
~
Glenn "Gilmoure" Amspaugh wrote:
> Well, trying to get folks to understand the idea that a tool
> like Merlin can't be used openly but has to controlled by a
> select group, secretly.
Isn't
that sort of what happens with the Ark of the Covenant in _Raiders_?
It's somewhat different because our protagonist, Conn Maxwell, is
_part_ of the secrecy but the idea is still the same.
> Maybe, if they spin it in the movie
> that certain agents of the Fed. were keeping it hid from the
> rest of the Federation, that might play better with folks?
I
think this all depends upon the way the Federation is portayed. I
think we Piper fans identify with the Federation--mostly from its
early days as told in _Four-Day_Planet_ or _Little_Fuzzy_ or even
"Oomphel in the Sky"--but by the time of _Cosmic_Computer, the
Federation
is really the "bad guy." Play that point up--cast Col. Zareff with a
sympathetic actor, make the decay and poverty of
Litchfield (and
even of Storisende) apparent to viewers--and you can develop all sorts
of antipathy toward the Federationists who have led civilization to
the destruction foretold by Merlin. . . .
> Or lay it that it has to be used secretly because the Feds will
> come and take it away? But you'd then have to set it up that
> the Feds believed it was destroyed at the end of the war.
I think an imagined scene or two of the coming collapse of the
Federation
and the Interstellar Wars to follow--think Sarah Connor imagining
Skylink's atomic destruction while looking through that chainlink
fence at the children on the playground--and you can have plenty of
sympathy for Maxwell and his cabal of Merlin concealers.
Remember Ashmodai! Remember Belphegor!
David
--
"Naturally.
Foxx Travis would expect a soul to be carried in a holster." - Miles
Gilbert (H. Beam Piper), "Oomphel in the Sky"
~
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David Johnson
01-12-2010
04:23 UT
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~
David "Lensman" Sooby wrote:
> BTW I don't agree that the climax of /Lord Kalvan/ needs to be
> puffed up. Look at the original "Star Wars": Everybody's grins
> with relief and hugs each other after the /Death Star/ is
> destroyed, they have a ceremony that pins medals on Luke and
> Han, everybody's happy (except maybe the Wookie, who should
> have gotten a medal too!)
>
> And you save it for the next movie to point out that the Empire
> is still there, and NOW THEY'RE REALLY PISSED!
Perhaps,
but I think this looks a bit different with the benefit two sequels
and three prequels. When we cut from the smiling heroes on the dais
to starscape in the movie theater that first time we had no idea of
what was to come. Sure, we may have been wondering what happened to
Darth Vader spinning away in his special TIE fighter, but as the
credits rolled we thought the Rebels had _won_.
We don't have
that sense at the end of _Kalvan_. Partly because of the musings of
Verkan and Tortha, we know there is still King
Kaiphranos, and
Styphon's House beyond him. Nevertheless, I think with a little
Hollywood morphing of Nostor with Harphax you could have an ending
that leaves us, at least, with that sense of victory we had when Luke,
Han, and Leia turned to grin at the assembled Rebel fighters to the
celebratory strains of John Williams' "Throne Room and End Title."
Down Styphon!
David
--
"At
the time of his death, H. Beam Piper was writing at the top of his
form and certainly with the best of his contemporaries." - John. F.
Carr, Introduction to _Empire_
~
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Gilmoure
01-11-2010
15:50 UT
|
Yeah, you'd really have to re-work the ending. It almost starts to sound
like that National Treasure 2 movie, with a race against both the bad
guys and the gov't. I guess you'd have to go past the folks agreeing to
keep Merlin secret and on to how it saved Poictesme. Maybe tie in having
the Navy ship yards available as well but not sure how to show that. Or
have it that they need to find the computer in order to head off sudden
collapse. Maybe proto-Space Vikings are about to invade and they need
Merlin to coordinate defense or some such (or turn on 'space shields' -
Bleah!). But yeah, as it stands, book ending wouldn't really work.
Still,
there's lots of cool imagery from CC that I'd love to see put on film
or even still imaged (any good digital artists out there?). The Luke
Skywalker looking kid returning to his dusty (long shots down the valley
with a dusty haze at sunset, over the terraces) town, his Dad showing
off the recon speeder, the battle around the volcano, and exploring the
ghost navy planet; they'd all be cool.
Maybe just end a movie
with Conn and his Dad using the Merlin story and the Third Force
equipment as a goad to get folks moving and get rid of Blackie Pearls
and end it there. That's short enough for a 2 hour flick and easy enough
for movie execs to get and sign off on.
Gilmoure
On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 8:20 AM, QT - Lensman <
qtopic-42-tnfVKeAH3s4T@quicktopic.com> wrote:
>
< replied-to message removed by QT >
|
|
Lensman
01-11-2010
15:20 UT
|
QT - David Johnson wrote:
>> With Cosmic Computer, if you spin it as a super computer that can
>> run every planet in simulation, this could help explain
> why
>> it's so big
>
> I suppose you could also "adapt" the search so that Merlin's size is
> not so central to it having been hidden. Instead of all the
> prospecting _at_ Duplicate Force Command you could instead show more
> of it across the Badlands (as was the case for all the non-Maxwell
> prospectors).
Upon
further reflection, I think /The Cosmic Computer/ is not a good
candidate for a movie. The ending is, cinematically, anti-climactic--
all talking heads and no explosions or gunplay.
As someone said earlier, I shudder to think of the changes Hollywood would make.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clear ether!
Lensman
Visit the Incompleat Known Space Concordance at:
http://www.freewebs.com/knownspace/
|
|
Gilmoure
01-11-2010
13:13 UT
|
Well, trying to get folks to understand the idea that a tool like
Merlin can't be used openly but has to controlled by a select group,
secretly. Maybe, if they spin it in the movie that certain agents of
the Fed. were keeping it hid from the rest of the Federation, that
might play better with folks?
Or lay it that it has to be used
secretly because the Feds will come and take it away? But you'd then
have to set it up that the Feds believed it was destroyed at the end
of the war.
Gilmoure
On Jan 11, 2010, at 12:52 PM, QT - David Johnson <qtopic-42-tnfVKeAH3s4T@quicktopic.com > wrote:
< replied-to message removed by QT >
|
|
David Johnson
01-11-2010
12:52 UT
|
~
Gilmoure wrote:
> Cosmic would be cool
[snip]
>
> Not sure how they'd handle the ending in a movie, though. This
> is Hollyweird were dealing with.
Not sure what you mean. How is the ending a problem?
Remember Ashmodai! Remember Belphegor!
David
--
"You know any kind of observation that doesn't contaminate the thing observed, professor?" - Tortha Karf (H. Beam Piper),
_Lord_Kalvan_of_Otherwhen_
~
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David Johnson
01-11-2010
12:51 UT
|
~
Gilmoure wrote:
> I thought of Oomphal but am worried they'd have to make a good
> portion of it about the valient colonials having to stand
> against the swarming aliens (Roark's Drift in space?) and then
> give short shrift to the 'working with society' fix.
It's
a challenge but I think you could do this, again, by starting a bit
earlier than Beam's story begins. Show Gilbert among the Kwanns to
help the audience identify with them in the same way he does. Then,
the audience is as worried about them killing themselves
_en_masse_ as about the loss of the Terrans' farm labor force.
Speak on, Grandfather of Grandfathers,
David
--
"I hope I've made the point, without over-making it, that the
proletariat aren't good and virtuous, only stupid, weak and
incompetent." - H. Beam Piper (on "A Slave is a Slave")
~
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David Johnson
01-11-2010
12:46 UT
|
~
Glenn "Gilmoure" Amspaugh wrote:
> With Cosmic Computer, if you spin it as a super computer that
> can run every planet in simulation, this could help explain why
> it's so big
I
suppose you could also "adapt" the search so that Merlin's size is
not so central to it having been hidden. Instead of all the
prospecting
_at_ Duplicate Force Command you could instead show more of it across
the Badlands (as was the case for all the non-Maxwell prospectors).
> as well as give some background to the Federation.
Yeah,
finding a way to do this well would be central to any Merlin film.
Without a sense of the "reach of Federation" the news from Merlin is
not all that unsettling.
Another neat idea here would be to play
up the mingling of the post- Civil War, er . . . I mean, post-System
States War cultures as Beam was doing but which might not be as
apparent to contemporary
audiences who wonder why all the Civil War battles seemed to take place in national parks. . . . ;)
Remember Ashmodai! Remember Belphegor!
David
--
"The
Terro-Human Future History . . . has a historian's attention to
sociological and political detail that is unsurpassed." - John F.
Carr, Introduction to _Empire_
~
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Gilmoure
01-11-2010
04:17 UT
|
Cosmic would be cool with all the ships and the two air battles. And
then there's the space navy planet; that would be all cgi. But that
would have cool robot attack.
Not sure how they'd handle the ending in a movie, though. This is Hollyweird were dealing with.
Gilmoure
On Jan 11, 2010, at 3:59 AM, QT - Lensman <qtopic-42-tnfVKeAH3s4T@quicktopic.com > wrote:
< replied-to message removed by QT >
|
|
David Johnson
01-11-2010
04:15 UT
|
~
Glenn "Gilmoure" Amspaugh wrote:
> As an aside, what would be the local weather effects of a 3000 M
> ship descending near a city. Wouldn't there be a lot wind at
> least?
Only
a third of that, I think (3000 feet) but huge nonetheless. In
_Four-Day_Planet_ they're pulled down from atmosphere by port tugs
while on contragravity, "completely weightless." Indeed, a couple of
more tugs go up for the final approach to help the ship maneuver
"against the wind."
Obviously, Space Viking ships--and perhaps
even those on frontier Federation-era planets like Poictesme--have to
accomplish this
maneuver by themselves, without the benefit of
tugs. Still, it would seem that something slightly less than exact
contragravity bouyancy ought to allow a ship to land on a planetary
surface with little relative velocity and therefore with only minor
secondar wind effects.
Monster Ho!
David
--
"You know any kind of observation that doesn't contaminate the thing observed, professor?" - Tortha Karf (H. Beam Piper),
_Lord_Kalvan_of_Otherwhen_
~
|
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Lensman
01-11-2010
03:59 UT
|
QT - David Johnson wrote:
> Nah, _Viking_ has to be done like a medieval fantasy film in
> space. Think Boorman's _Excalibur_ rather than _Trek_. This
> would be my first choice for a Piper film.
Oooh,
I like your thinking! "Excalibur" is one of my very favorite films.
And yes, /Space Viking/ has enuff action to justify extensive CGI work,
whereas most of the others don't. /The Cosmic Computer/ might, but
that would require such extensive use of GCI backgrounds... very little
of that could be filmed "on location".
BTW I don't agree that
the climax of /Lord Kalvan/ needs to be puffed up. Look at the
original "Star Wars": Everybody's grins with relief and hugs each other
after the /Death Star/ is destroyed, they have a ceremony that pins
medals on Luke and Han, everybody's happy (except maybe the Wookie, who
should have gotten a medal too!)
And you save it for the next movie to point out that the Empire is still there, and NOW THEY'RE REALLY PISSED!
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clear ether!
Lensman
Visit the Incompleat Known Space Concordance at:
http://www.freewebs.com/knownspace/
|
|
Gilmoure
01-11-2010
03:50 UT
|
I thought of Oomphal but am worried they'd have to make a good portion
of it about the valient colonials having to stand against the swarming
aliens (Roark's Drift in space?) and then give short shrift to the
'working with society' fix.
Gilmoure
On Jan 11, 2010, at 3:16 AM, QT - David Johnson <qtopic-42-tnfVKeAH3s4T@quicktopic.com > wrote:
< replied-to message removed by QT >
|
|
David Johnson
01-11-2010
03:16 UT
|
~
Jon Crocker wrote:
> Any other suggestions?
How
'bout "Oomphel in the Sky"? Plenty of exotic aliens and sci-fi
gimmickry. You'd have to have some major characters left on the
ground in Bluelake while the _Hesperus_ makes her way 'round the
planet to keep the audience involved in some of the action from the
swarmings up close.
Speak on, Grandfather of Grandfathers,
David
--
"Naturally.
Foxx Travis would expect a soul to be carried in a holster." - Miles
Gilbert (H. Beam Piper), "Oomphel in the Sky"
~
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Gilmoure
01-11-2010
03:13 UT
|
With Cosmic Computer, if you spin it as a super computer that can run
every planet in simulation, this could help explain why it's so big as
well as give some background to the Federation.
Avatar shows how Uller Uprising could work with CGI. Cool!
Gilmoure
On Jan 10, 2010, at 7:56 PM, QT - David Johnson wrote:
< replied-to message removed by QT >
|
|
David Johnson
01-11-2010
03:03 UT
|
~
Jim Broshot wrote:
> But, with an unlimited budget for animatronics and CGI, how
> about "Uller Uprising"?
>
> Sort of a topic for the times, civil unrest and rogue nuclear
> weapons.
Yeah, this might be good. The same sort of veiled hegemonic
political
economy found in _Avatar_. The funny thing is that Von Schlichten
would have to become an Arab or South Asian for the
character to
have the same sort of effect on contemporary audiences as the
General--and his Vichy-descended girl--must have had on
American readers in 1952. . . .
Znidd Suddabit!
David
--
"You
know, most of the wars they've been fighting, lately, on the
Europo-American Sector have been, at least in part, motivated by
rivalry for oil fields." - H. Beam Piper, "Temple Trouble," 1951
~
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David Johnson
01-11-2010
02:56 UT
|
~
Glenn "Gilmoure" Amspaugh wrote:
> Something shorter, like Four Day Planet,
Yes, this would be cool. Plenty of action and a great "surprise ending."
> Temple Trouble, The
> Last Enemy,
I don't think the reincarnation theme of "Enemy" works for
contemporary
film audiences. The problem with most of the Paratime yarns is that
the Paratimers are sort of ancillary to the actual story. Maybe
"Police Operation" would work best, particularly if it were begun not
from Verkan's perspective but as a sort of horror film from the
perspective of some of the nighthound's early victims.
> For something like Cosmic Computer,
This
would be my second choice, after _Space_Viking_, but how in the world
do you get past Merlin's size in an era of smart phones?
Remember Ashmodai! Remember Belphegor!
David
--
"You
know, it's never a mistake to take a second look at anything that
everybody believes." - Rodney Maxwell (H. Beam Piper),
"Graveyard of Dreams"
~
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Jim Broshot
01-11-2010
02:44 UT
|
On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 5:51 PM, QT - Jon Crocker
<qtopic-42-tnfVKeAH3s4T@quicktopic.com> wrote:
> Any other suggestions?
Kalvan would be my first choice too.
But, with an unlimited budget for animatronics and CGI, how about "Uller Uprising"?
Sort of a topic for the times, civil unrest and rogue nuclear weapons.
Jim Broshot
|
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David Johnson
01-11-2010
02:41 UT
|
~
Jack "Grimmoer" Russell wrote:
> LF has cross-the-board
> appeal; Little fuzzy aliens fo the kids, a redeemable bad-guy
> for the women and a crusty old prospector who's good with a gun
> that would be good for the John Wayne and NRA fans.
The
thing with _Little_Fuzzy_ is that it is essentially a courtroom
drama. There's not enough "action film" action to go along with the
extensive special effects required to do the Fuzzies justice. I agree
it would be great to watch but it would flop in theaters.
Rather,
I think the best Fuzzy yarn for a film would be Tuning's
_Fuzzy_Bones_. Again, you could "adapt" elements from the other
novels--Diamond's gang's heist of the sunstones from the Chartered
Zarathustran Company's vault would be great--and pump up the idea that
the Fuzzies are actually a lost race of interstellar explorers and
you have the makings of a great sci-fi film--and plenty of
opportunities for a swashbuckling sequel: _The_Search_for_FuzzyHome_. ;)
> SV brings
> in the Star Trek crowd who are still jonesing for the next
> flick.
Nah,
_Viking_ has to be done like a medieval fantasy film in space. Think
Boorman's _Excalibur_ rather than _Trek_. This would be my first
choice for a Piper film.
David
--
"_Space_Viking_ itself is
. . . a yarn that will be cited, years hence, as one of the
science-fiction classics. It's got solid
philosophy for the mature
thinker, and bang-bang-chop-'em-up action for the space-pirate fans.
As a truly good yarn should have!" - John W. Campbell, 1962
~
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David Johnson
01-11-2010
02:18 UT
|
~
Jon Crocker wrote:
> Me, I'd make "Kalvan" but as a miniseries.
I
agree _Kalvan_ would make a great miniseries, but that's a tough
place to start with a relatively unknown work. On the other hand, I
agree with Jack that you'd have to have Kalvan prevail over Styphon's
House in a one-off film. We Piper fans would howl but you ought to be
able to do just "Gunpowder God" where Gormoth was a bit bigger
foe--and Styphon's House's reach a bit less pervasive--and end the
film with the victory over Nostor, throwing in the toppling of
Styphon's House at the same time.
Hollywood does this sort of thing all the time with its "adaptations."
Down Styphon!
David
--
"Why
Walt Disney bought the movie rights to ['Rebel Raider'], I've never
figured out. Will Colonel Mosby be played by Mickey Mouse, and General
Phil Sheridan by Donald Duck? It's baffling. However, I was glad to
get the check." - H. Beam Piper
~
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Gilmoure
01-11-2010
01:56 UT
|
On Jan 10, 2010, at 4:51 PM, QT - Jon Crocker wrote:
Here's a question - suddenly you find yourself at the head of a
production studio. Which Piper story do you set to film first?
Something
shorter, like Four Day Planet, Temple Trouble, The Last Enemy, or Uller
Uprising would work well for a sub-2 hour movie. For something like
Cosmic Computer, Lord Kalvin, or Space Viking, they would really
require 3-4 hours. Could see them as some of those 2 part shows they
have on that Syfylus Channel.
As an aside, what would be the local
weather effects of a 3000 M ship descending near a city. Wouldn't there
be a lot wind at least?
Gilmoure
|
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Grimmoer
01-11-2010
01:28 UT
|
"Little Fuzzy" or "Space Viking." LF has cross-the-board appeal; Little
fuzzy aliens fo the kids, a redeemable bad-guy for the women and a
crusty old prospector who's good with a gun that would be good for the
John Wayne and NRA fans. SV brings in the Star Trek crowd who are
still jonesing for the next flick. "Lord Kalvan" would be good, but it
would need a final resolution to grab the audience. Styphon's crowd
has to be well and termanally creamed.
J&#E4;ck R&#FC;ssell
"Don't take life so serious, son.
It ain't nohow permanent."
-
Walt Kelly
< replied-to message removed by QT >
|
Jon Crocker 01-10-2010
23:51 UT
|
Here's a question - suddenly you find yourself at the head of a
production studio. Which Piper story do you set to film first?
Me,
I'd make "Kalvan" but as a miniseries. You could film parts on
location, using cgi to make modern things period-accurate of course.
And maybe get some local civil war reenactors to play the part of the
army troops.
Any other suggestions?
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