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David Johnson
08-29-2009
07:07 UT
|
~
Beyond Fifth Level: Therapod Cradle
Jon Crocker wrote:
> Or would early paratimers have decided to place a ban on sectors
> inhabited by descendants of velociraptors? :)
Back
in 1994-95 I was involved in the development of an alternate history
role-playing game called Infinite Earths. The effort never came to
fruition but a very sketchy and clunky version of some of the
development material is available here:
http://www.zarthani.net/InfiniteEarths/index.html
As
you can see one of the alternate settings was called "Theropod
Cradle," the idea being a world in which _two_ sentient species
evolved on Earth: humans and another, sentient reptilian race (with
their own "cradles of civilization"). Most of the development of this
setting never got much beyond the brainstorming phase--I have bits
and pieces of various unorganized e-mail discussions. It occurs to me
though that with our new ideas about areas of Paratime which might
exist "beyond" what Beam's Paratimers know as the Fifth Level there
might be a place somewhere in Paratime for this sort of setting.
A
few years back I and another Piper fan (still lurking here on the
list, I believe) had an off-line discussion about Therapod Cradle but
at the time didn't believe it was "on topic" for Piper because such a
setting didn't fit in the five known Levels of Paratime. We'd even
mentioned then that what would be needed was some sort of "Sixth
Level" (though we had no idea how to conceive of such a thing back
then). Well, perhaps the Therapod Cradle Basic Sector-Group exists in
some eddy of Paratime a few millions "para-years" away from the
"para-vortex" centered on the Home Timeline of Verkan Vall. . . .
Down Lizardmen!
David
--
"You
know, it's never a mistake to take a second look at anything that
everybody believes." - Rodney Maxwell (H. Beam Piper),
"Graveyard of Dreams"
~
|
|
David Johnson
08-28-2009
03:52 UT
|
~
David "Lensman" Sooby wrote:
>> (Alternatively, you must still then explain the "para-peeping" if you
>> choose to go with the alternative explanation for the identify
>> verification.)
>
> I *did* explain how the para-peeping could have happened.
> Verkan was looking /en passant/ at one of the doppelgangers at
> the fake duplicate ParaCop HQ. I also explained why the
> reaction when he told the young lady in question was laughter
> instead of shock.
Ah, I didn't understand that the first time 'round. I see what you mean now.
Down Styphon!
David
--
"Captain, you almost make me believe in luck." - Mr. Spock,
_Star_Trek_, "A Taste of Armageddon"
~
|
|
Lensman
08-28-2009
03:47 UT
|
QT - David Johnson wrote:
>> But we can speculate. Note that Verkan Vall was checked in that
>> story to see if he was "our" Verkan Vall. Why? Obvious
>> implication: Someone had been using "doubles" of Paratime Police,
>> substituting them for the real person, as part of some nefarious
>> scheme.
>
> That's a clever trope to explain the identity verification, but my
> point was that Beam may have had some other idea in mind to explain
> why there was only a single Home Timeline in later Paratime yarns
Sure.
But he left no explanation, so if we want one we've got to make it up
ourselves. Piper chose to just ignore it in later stories.
> (Alternatively, you must still then explain the "para-peeping" if you
> choose to go with the alternative explanation for the identify
> verification.)
I
*did* explain how the para-peeping could have happened. Verkan was
looking /en passant/ at one of the doppelgangers at the fake duplicate
ParaCop HQ. I also explained why the reaction when he told the young
lady in question was laughter instead of shock.
> Neat idea but I'm not sure it fits quite right with the other
> information in the Paratime canon.
Yah,
well I posted it here to see if y'all could shoot holes in it. Better
to find the flaws now before anyone tries to write a story using the
ideas.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clear ether!
Lensman
Visit the Incompleat Known Space Concordance at:
http://www.freewebs.com/knownspace/
|
|
David Johnson
08-28-2009
03:46 UT
|
~
Jon Crocker wrote:
> OK, I admit this is a little 'out there', but just how far does
> "Paratime" go?
>
> Could it include belts where various natural disasters didn't
> happen, or were worse? Krakatoa didn't happen, or the 1908
> Tunguska event happened over a city, for example? If a whole
> sector arose from a migration east instead of west, what would
> happen if Moscow, or London, or Berlin were wiped out by a big
> meteor?
I
think the "weather" issue suggests that Beam intended for the changes
from one timeline to another to be the sole result of some sort of
sapient action, so in general this would not be the case.
Of course, "The Answer" makes it clear that Beam had some pretty interesting ideas about the possibilities for agency in the
universe. Perhaps whatever it was that hit Tunguska was not the result of a natually-occurring phenomenon after all. . . .
Down Styphon!
David
--
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is
right." - Salvor Hardin
~
|
|
David Johnson
08-28-2009
03:39 UT
|
~
David "Lensman" Sooby wrote:
> The line about the weather being
> the same from one end of Paratime to the other-- regardless of
> how unlikely that may be-- is a strong indication to me that
> natural forces do not vary from timeline to timeline.
I agree with Lensman. ;)
>> Or would early paratimers have decided to place a ban on sectors
>> inhabited by descendants of velociraptors? :)
>
[snip]
> Maybe if they kept going, they'd find sectors where
> intelligent descendants of Velociraptor were building cities!
I believe this is a reasonable supposition. The Paratimers are parasites who never left the Sol system prior to discovering
paratemporal
transposition. Thus, they are content merely to exploit the
timelines nearest to a Terra populated by the descendants of Martian
immigrants who had depleted the resources of their own world millennia
ago. They've come nowhere near depleting the resources of this
"super-cluster" of timelines and so it's never occurred to them to
travel any farther cross-time. . . .
Perhaps it makes more sense
to think of the "structure" of Paratime in terms of a series of
ever-larger concentric circles or rings--with Home Timeline at the
"center"--rather than in terms of "Levels." Thus, perhaps somewhere
"beyond" the outermost, "Fifth Level" of uninhabited Earth timelines
are even more distant timelines where Martians never evolved on Mars
and who knows what--sentient, quasi- velociraptors even--evolved on
Earth instead.
Down Styphon!
David
--
"You know,
it's never a mistake to take a second look at anything that everybody
believes." - Rodney Maxwell (H. Beam Piper),
"Graveyard of Dreams"
~
|
|
David Johnson
08-28-2009
03:27 UT
|
~
David "Lensman" Sooby wrote:
> At the least, small local weather patterns will be affected by
> such things as you mention-- draining swamps and the like.
>
> Personally I'd rather find some way to explain away any apparent
> impossibilities or contradictions in the canon, but I admit in
> this case I can't think of anything to make it work. So
> altho I don't like the idea of just ignoring something the
> canon states is true, in this case it may be best.
I'm
with you both on the inclination to "make the canon work" if at all
possible as a general rule and on the unfortunate conclusion in this
instance that the cross-time weather conundrum is a tough nut to
crack.
Down Styphon!
David
--
"A girl can punch any
kind of a button a man can, and a lot of them knew what buttons to
punch, and why." - Conn Maxwell (H. Beam Piper), _The_Cosmic_Computer_
~
|
|
David Johnson
08-28-2009
03:23 UT
|
~
David "Lensman" Sooby wrote:
> But we can speculate. Note that Verkan Vall was checked in that
> story to see if he was "our" Verkan Vall. Why? Obvious
> implication: Someone had been using "doubles" of Paratime
> Police, substituting them for the real person, as part of some
> nefarious scheme.
That's
a clever trope to explain the identity verification, but my point was
that Beam may have had some other idea in mind to explain why there
was only a single Home Timeline in later Paratime yarns, not just to
explain why Verkan was checked in "Police Operation" to make sure he
was the "correct" Verkan. I mean, it wasn't simply that his identify
was verified--he actually "para-peeped" at that redhead on another
timeline and then _met_ her on "his" timeline! If we have to throw
this out as an unfortunate "learning experience" in Beam's first
Paratime yarn, why not throw out the checking of his identity as well?
(Alternatively,
you must still then explain the "para-peeping" if you choose to go
with the alternative explanation for the identify
verification.)
> It must have been a shock to discover
> that you've got an exact double living in a building just like
> yours, who thinks they *are* you. How do you react? Either
> laugh or cry. For the sake of their mental health, the Paratime
> Police were encouraged by counselors and supervisors to laugh.
Hmmm.
We already begin to suspect in "Time Crime" that the Bureau of
Psychological Hygiene--those "counselors and supervisors"--has been
infiltrated by the mysterious and nefarious Organization behind the
Wizard Traders. . . .
Neat idea but I'm not sure it fits quite right with the other
information in the Paratime canon.
Down Styphon!
David
--
"The
Terro-Human Future History . . . has a historian's attention to
sociological and political detail that is unsurpassed." - John F.
Carr, Introduction to _Empire_
~
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Gilmoure
08-27-2009
14:58 UT
|
That would explain the Paratime Police car and guys in uniform that took out Salvor Trod (sp?) when he was being brought in.
G
On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 11:34 PM, QT - Lensman <
qtopic-42-tnfVKeAH3s4T@quicktopic.com> wrote:
>
< replied-to message removed by QT >
|
|
Lensman
08-27-2009
07:34 UT
|
QT - David Johnson wrote:
> Lensman sez:
>> Now it seems doubly odd that the one single
>> first-level timeline would be the one timeline out of a
>> near-infinite number which developed cross-time travel. The
>> obvious conclusion is that it's no coincidence at all-- that
>> there's something about the probability of developing
>> cross-time travel that made it likely on the one First Level
>> timeline, but no where else.
>
> Unless, of course, there is a "Meta-Paratime" civilization
> secretly manipulating the Paratime civilization in a manner
> akin to the way in which the Paratimers secretly manipulate
> the other civilizations of Paratime.
Well
it seems I made a fundamental error. Recent posts have talked about
different sectors in First Level. So it's just the Home Timeline which
has not been duplicated... and *not* that there's only one timeline in
the First Level.
But you have an interesting hypothesis there, which obviously could lead to an unlimited number of steps in a hierarchy...
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clear ether!
Lensman
Visit the Incompleat Known Space Concordance at:
http://www.freewebs.com/knownspace/
|
|
Lensman
08-27-2009
07:17 UT
|
QT - Gilmoure wrote:
> And since it appears that new timelines arise from the agency of
> the extra physical componant, it almost seems that a certain
> type of intellegence is required.
Can you point to any story which actually says a new timeline was created?
> Another thing I wonder is what is the scale of paratime? Is it
> localized to human observed reality? Do multiple timelines merge
> back in to one unseen universe out there?
I
too have wondered about this. Is what the Paratimers think of as the
entirety of Paratime actually all of it? Or is it just what their
cross-time-travel machines are capable of reaching? Might it be that
what they call Paratime is just one branch of a tree? Might other
branches have intelligent dinosaurs, or something even more fantastic?
Maybe some branches are inhabited by races from a planet more distant
than Mars? Might one branch even be ruled by a species which evolved on
a planet other Mars or Earth?
And if that EPC mumbo-jumbo
really does have some physical reality, and isn't just some sort of
Paratimer religion, then is the way Paratimers perceive the reality of
different timelines the objective reality? Or could it be that either:
1.
There is only one reality and only one timeline; it's just subjective
human perception that differs from place to place and culture to
culture. (But then, how/why do the cross-time conveyors work?)
2.
There are no distinct timelines, but rather an infinity of shadings
from one to another. Humans can only perceive reality at certain
probability levels or only at certain Paratime resonance frequencies.
(Might there be other species which can also only perceive certain
Paratime resonance frequencies; frequencies which are out of sync with
the Human ones? Might there be other Paratime cultures interspersed
with the Human Paratime culture? And what would happen if one somehow
discovered another?)
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clear ether!
Lensman
Visit the Incompleat Known Space Concordance at:
http://www.freewebs.com/knownspace/
|
|
Lensman
08-27-2009
07:01 UT
|
QT - Jon Crocker wrote:
> Could it include belts where various natural disasters didn't
> happen, or were worse? Krakatoa didn't happen, or the 1908
> Tunguska event happened over a city, for example? If a whole
> sector arose from a migration east instead of west, what would
> happen if Moscow, or London, or Berlin were wiped out by a big
> meteor?
Yes
indeed, this is a question I've always wanted to see addressed in a
Paratime story. Do natural events also vary from timeline to timeline?
The line about the weather being the same from one end of Paratime to
the other-- regardless of how unlikely that may be-- is a strong
indication to me that natural forces do not vary from timeline to
timeline. Apparently Chaos Theory need not apply, or if it does it's
only on a very fine scale; on the gross scale, natural events happen
identically on all the timelines. Perhaps even the weather *tends* to
be the same on all timelines, with local variations for local
conditions,
but with local variations damped out over distance and time. Since
we don't know just what mechanism keeps adjacent timelines from
drifting ever farther apart as time passes, it may be that this same
mechanism keeps weather the same (except for the aforementioned local
variations) across all Paratime.
> For an even wilder
question - is there a paratime sector where > the dinosaur-killer
asteroid didn't smack into the earth 65
> million years back?
>
> Or would early paratimers have decided to place a ban on sectors > inhabited by descendants of velociraptors? :)
How
much of Paratime has been surveyed? We know most timelines haven't
been visited. Has there been any attempt to survey paratime from one
end to the other? Or did surveying peter out when they stopped
discovering
inhabited timelines? If the latter, then who knows? Maybe if they
kept going, they'd find sectors where intelligent descendants of
Velociraptor were building cities!
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clear ether!
Lensman
Visit the Incompleat Known Space Concordance at:
http://www.freewebs.com/knownspace/
|
|
Lensman
08-27-2009
06:47 UT
|
QT - David Johnson wrote:
> David "Lensman" Sooby wrote:
>
>> Also, one story said the weather was the same on *all* timelines.
>> So altho human actions and history varies on different timelines,
>> not everything does.
>
> This was simply an error, in my view. It comes from an era when
> the influence of human activity upon climate was not widely
> recognized. And even Beam "got smarter" on this point. By
> the Fuzzy novels he was noting that efforts to drain a massive
> swamp on Zarathustra was having an effect on the climate.
There's
a theory that human activity, perhaps something as simple as sheep
grazing killing off grass-- but perhaps also slash-and-burn
agriculture-- has caused or at least accelerated the desertification of
North Africa. If this is true, then uninhabited timelines will have
less desert in North Africa, which will have significant effect on
global weather patterns. At the least, small local weather patterns
will be affected by such things as you mention-- draining swamps and the
like.
Personally I'd rather find some way to explain away any
apparent impossibilities or contradictions in the canon, but I admit in
this case I can't think of anything to make it work. So altho I
don't like the idea of just ignoring something the canon states is
true, in this case it may be best.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clear ether!
Lensman
Visit the Incompleat Known Space Concordance at:
http://www.freewebs.com/knownspace/
|
|
David Johnson
08-27-2009
06:39 UT
|
~
David "Lensman" Sooby wrote:
> Now it seems doubly odd that the one single
> first-level timeline would be the one timeline out of a
> near-infinite number which developed cross-time travel. The
> obvious conclusion is that it's no coincidence at all-- that
> there's something about the probability of developing
> cross-time travel that made it likely on the one First Level
> timeline, but no where else.
Unless,
of course, there is a "Meta-Paratime" civilization secretly
manipulating the Paratime civilization in a manner akin to the way in
which the Paratimers secretly manipulate the other civilizations of
Paratime.
;)
Down Styphon!
David
--
"You
know, it's never a mistake to take a second look at anything that
everybody believes." - Rodney Maxwell (H. Beam Piper),
"Graveyard of Dreams"
~
|
|
David Johnson
08-27-2009
06:35 UT
|
~
Glenn "Gilmoure" Amspaugh wrote:
> And since it appears that new timelines arise from the agency of
> the extra physical componant, it almost seems that a certain
> type of intellegence is required.
Agreed.
> Do dogs or dolphins or fuzzies have an EPC? If so, can they move
> through time and carry future memories with them?
Dolphins perhaps. Not Fuzzies though because they don't exist in Paratime. ;)
Down Styphon!
David
--
"I hope I've made the point, without over-making it, that the
proletariat aren't good and virtuous, only stupid, weak and
incompetent." - H. Beam Piper (on "A Slave is a Slave")
~
|
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Lensman
08-27-2009
06:34 UT
|
QT - David Johnson wrote:
> Given that it's clear Beam was making a conscious choice to
> portray the Home Timeline Paratimers differently after "Police
>
> Operation" (apparently having realized that the device of
> multiple Verkan Vall's simply wasn't going to work in a series
> of Paratime yarns) I like to believe he had a solution in mind
> here, rather than was merely "sweeping under the rug" an
> inconvenient portayal in his first Paratime yarn.
>
> Of course, what that "solution" might have been, we may never
> know.
But
we can speculate. Note that Verkan Vall was checked in that story to
see if he was "our" Verkan Vall. Why? Obvious implication: Someone
had been using "doubles" of Paratime Police, substituting them for the
real person, as part of some nefarious scheme. Most likely this
involved cloning individuals and growing them in an accelerated fashion.
Remember that the Paratime culture has the ability to... what's it
called? Narco-hypnotize? Anyway, to impose information and personality
on a brain without having to take the time for the normal learning.
So all the Evil Mastermind (or Cabal) has to do is grow these bodies,
then program them to think and act like the real person. Except, of
course, they'll be instructed to carry out some carefully laid plans...
Naturally
the EM or Cabal imports some proles to build a duplicate of the
Paratime Police headquarters on a First Level timeline not too far from
the Paratime timelin, so the doppelgangers can become familiar with
the layout of the building and the everyday routine of people working in
the Paratime Police HQ. How did the EM/C hide the duplicate HQ from
observation by traveling Paratimers? That would be part of the story,
of course.
By the time of the first Paratime story, the plot had
been discovered, unusual security techniques involving blood testing
had been temporarily established, and the existence of the doppleganger
Paratime Police HQ had become a big joke to the real Paratime Police.
It must have been a shock to discover that you've got an exact double
living in a building just like yours, who thinks they *are* you. How
do you react? Either laugh or cry. For the sake of their mental
health, the Paratime Police were encouraged by counselors and
supervisors to laugh.
Since this was never mentioned again, it seems likely the
dopplegangers--
after some delay while policy was argued at the highest levels and
hammered out-- were gathered up and... well, just how ruthless are the
Paratimers? The smart thing to do would be to kill the doubles, to
prevent them from being used in another similar plot. But if the
Paratimers couldn't bring themselves to kill doubles of
themselves,
perhaps the doubles were shipped to some far-off backwater uninhabited
timeline and quietly guarded to live out a normal lifespan. Which
would leave room for a sequel...
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clear ether!
Lensman
Visit the Incompleat Known Space Concordance at:
http://www.freewebs.com/knownspace/
|
|
David Johnson
08-27-2009
06:32 UT
|
~
Jack Russell wrote:
> The way Piper wrote it, the weather was the same from time-line
> to time-line, suggesting that all things being equal, the were
> the same, Now today we know that human activity can affect the
> weather. Piper himself seemed to realize this in Little Fuzzy
> as previously mentioned. As such, we have to assume that only
> the changes caused by humans (or Martian colonists if you
> prefer) would have an effect on the weather.
I
think that's right. Without some sort of sapient agency each
paratime timeline would be the same. Of course, over time it might be
difficult to unravel what the particular impact of sapient agency is
on a given timeline. But it seems clear that it was Beam's
interest in history which led him to the concept of multiple,
alternate timelines and it is sapient (human) agency which drives history.
Down Styphon!
David
--
"I
remember, when I was just a kid, about a hundred and fifty years
ago--a hundred and thirty-nine, to be exact--I picked up a fellow on
the Fourth Level, just about where you're operating, and dragged him a
couple of hundred parayears. I went back to find him and return him
to his own time-line, but before I could locate him, he'd been
arrested
by the local authorities as a suspicious character, and got himself
shot trying to escape. I felt badly about that. . . ." - Tortha Karf,
"Police Operation"
~
|
|
David Johnson
08-27-2009
06:28 UT
|
~
Jon Crocker wrote:
> I think the 'multiple Verkans' got dropped when Piper realized
> that there was exactly one Home Time Line, and many of the other
> First Level timelines were depopulated wastelands.
>
> Now if it were a cluster of timelines that had the Paratime
> Secret, I bet he would have run with it.
No,
I think "para-peeping Verkan" was simply a clever idea which helped
to make the story appealing to Beam's _Astounding_ readers when he had
first conceived of the Paratime Police but one that he realized would
become unmanageable once he started writing more Paratime Police
yarns.
Down Styphon!
David
--
"You know, most of the
wars they've been fighting, lately, on the Europo-American Sector
have been, at least in part, motivated by rivalry for oil fields." -
H. Beam Piper, "Temple Trouble," 1951
~
|
|
Lensman
08-27-2009
05:57 UT
|
QT - Jack Russell wrote:
> It seems to me that there should be multiple sectors of 1st
> level. At the very minimum, one where cross-time transposition
> became possible, and one where it never happened. I suspect
> the non-timeline sector would have used up all the resources
> and either left for the stars (they have had millinia to get
> the tech straight on that since coming to Earth) or devolved
> into barbarism. That's two more sub-sectors. Even if we
> ignore the possibility of splitting off realities, shouldn't
> those probable time-lines already exist?
Well,
whether or not we think such timelines *ought* to exist, the canon is
quite clear that only one timeline has developed cross-time travel. Now
it seems doubly odd that the one single first-level timeline would be
the one timeline out of a near-infinite number which developed
cross-time travel. The obvious conclusion is that it's no coincidence
at all-- that there's something about the probability of developing
cross-time travel that made it likely on the one First Level timeline,
but no where else.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clear ether!
Lensman
Visit the Incompleat Known Space Concordance at:
http://www.freewebs.com/knownspace/
|
|
Jack Russell
08-27-2009
03:17 UT
|
5th level is uninhabited by Martian colonists, Only Neanderthals who
never achieved civilization higher than stone-age tech live there...and
1st level retirees and the odd 1st level industries.
Jack
< replied-to message removed by QT >
|
|
Gilmoure
08-27-2009
02:10 UT
|
And since it appears that new timelines arise from the agency of the
extra physical componant, it almost seems that a certain type of
intellegence is required.
Do dogs or dolphins or fuzzies have an EPC? If so, can they move through time and carry future memories with them?
Another thing I wonder is what is the scale of paratime? Is it
localized to human observed reality? Do multiple timelines merge back in to one unseen universe out there?
Gilmoure
On Aug 26, 2009, at 6:27 PM, QT - Jack Russell <qtopic-42-tnfVKeAH3s4T@quicktopic.com > wrote:
< replied-to message removed by QT >
|
|
Jack Russell
08-27-2009
01:27 UT
|
The way Piper wrote it, the weather was the same from time-line to
time-line, suggesting that all things being equal, the were the same,
Now today we know that human activity can affect the weather. Piper
himself seemed to realize this in Little Fuzzy as previously mentioned.
As such, we have to assume that only the changes caused by humans (or
Martian colonists if you prefer) would have an effect on the weather.
Fluorocarbons in the atmosphere brings on global warming and flooding
and related atmospheric disturbances. This would not affect meteor
activity or volcanic activity unless the civilization is advanced
enough to bore significantly into the earth's crust.
Jack
< replied-to message removed by QT >
|
Jon Crocker  08-27-2009
00:47 UT
|
OK, I admit this is a little 'out there', but just how far does "Paratime" go?
Could
it include belts where various natural disasters didn't happen, or were
worse? Krakatoa didn't happen, or the 1908 Tunguska event happened
over a city, for example? If a whole sector arose from a migration east
instead of west, what would happen if Moscow, or London, or Berlin were
wiped out by a big meteor?
For an even wilder question - is
there a paratime sector where the dinosaur-killer asteroid didn't smack
into the earth 65 million years back?
Or would early paratimers have decided to place a ban on sectors inhabited by descendants of velociraptors? :)
Jon
|
Jon Crocker 08-26-2009
05:10 UT
|
I think the 'multiple Verkans' got dropped when Piper realized that
there was exactly one Home Time Line, and many of the other First Level
timelines were depopulated wastelands.
Now if it were a cluster of timelines that had the Paratime Secret, I bet he would have run with it.
Would
the Kalvan timeline "need time to develop into a subsector?" He pretty
much started changing things on day one, and ended up King before too
long. Those university types were pretty pleased with the research
opportunities.
Of course, it would be a 'subsector of one' since only one Calvan Morrison was swept to Hostigos.
Jon
|
|
David Johnson
08-26-2009
04:59 UT
|
~
Re: The Extraphysical Component (EPC)
Glenn "Gilmoure" Amspaugh wrote:
> that plays well with the example of VV to the Rocket pilot
> (going in to a bar, meets a girl, ends up shot dead and his
> extra-ego component (?) (at work; no access to Piper) goes back
> and over to next timeline and influences him to skip first bar
> and go elsewhere.
Actually,
Verkan is not talking about an actual person doing this but the guy's
"extraphysical component." It would seem he was thinking more here
about what happened to Allan Hartley in "Time and Time Again" or
perhaps the reincarnating people of Akor Neb in "Last Enemy."
> Look forward to hearing your retcon of first Paratime story. As
> long as it has multiple cute redheads taking showers. That's
> always a plus.
Hear, hear!
David
--
"Do
you know which books to study, and which ones not to bother with? Or
which ones to read first, so that what you read in the others will be
comprehensible to you? That's what they'll give you [at
university] on Terra. The tools, which you don't have now, for
educating yourself." - Bish Ware (H. Beam Piper), _Four-Day_Planet_
|
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David Johnson
08-26-2009
04:42 UT
|
~
David "Lensman" Sooby wrote:
> Also, one
> story said the weather was the same on *all* timelines. So
> altho human actions and history varies on different timelines,
> not everything does.
This
was simply an error, in my view. It comes from an era when the
influence of human activity upon climate was not widely recognized.
And even Beam "got smarter" on this point. By the Fuzzy novels he was
noting that efforts to drain a massive swamp on Zarathustra was
having an effect on the climate.
> Aside from the first Paratime story, there's no hint of any
> "doppleganger" of any paratimer. And my impression is that most
> Piper fans would prefer to ignore that passage in the first
> story.
Count me in here. I'm willing to write it off as Beam still finding his "Paratime legs."
> In fact, I wish someone would write a story retconning
> an explanation for that which does *not* involve multiple First
> Level timelines. I've got some ideas about how to do that...
Oh, do tell!
David
--
"Good things in the long run are often tough while they're
happening." - Otto Harkaman (H. Beam Piper), _Space_Viking_
~
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David Johnson
08-26-2009
04:36 UT
|
~
Re: Para-peeping Verkan Valls
Glenn "Gilmoure" Amspaugh wrote:
> Or is this being swept under the rug like the first Paratime
> story with Verkin Vall being checked to see which Verkin he was
> (he was the para-peeper)?
Given that it's clear Beam was making a conscious choice to portray the Home Timeline Paratimers differently after "Police
Operation"
(apparently having realized that the device of multiple Verkan Vall's
simply wasn't going to work in a series of Paratime yarns) I like to
believe he had a solution in mind here, rather than was merely
"sweeping under the rug" an inconvenient portayal in his first
Paratime yarn.
Of course, what that "solution" might have been, we may never know.
Down Styphon!
David
--
"You
know, it's never a mistake to take a second look at anything that
everybody believes." - Rodney Maxwell (H. Beam Piper),
"Graveyard of Dreams"
~
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David Johnson
08-25-2009
04:42 UT
|
~
Jack Russell wrote:
> It seems to me that there should be multiple sectors of 1st
> level.
There are at least two (in addition to the Home Timeline sector):
http://www.zarthani.net/timelines.htm
> At the very minimum, one where cross-time transposition
> became possible, and one where it never happened. I suspect
> the non-timeline sector would have used up all the resources
> and either left for the stars (they have had millinia to get
> the tech straight on that since coming to Earth) or devolved
> into barbarism.
That would be Dwarma Sector (from "Time Crime"):
"The people of the First Level Dwarma Sector, reduced by sheer
starvation to a tiny handful, had abandoned their cities and
renounced
their technologies and created for themselves a farm-and- village
culture without progress or change or curiosity or struggle or
ambition, and a way of life in which every day was like every other
day that had been or that would come."
And perhaps also Abzar Sector (also from "Time Crime"):
"The
Abzar people had . . . wasted their resources to the last, fighting
bitterly over the ultimate crumbs, with fission bombs, and with
muskets, and with swords, and with spears and clubs, and finally they
had died out, leaving a planet of almost uniform desert dotted with
vast empty cities which even twelve thousand years had hardly begun to
obliterate."
(I don't recall any mention of a First
Level civilization which escaped to an interstellar destination. The
Home Timeline folks were working on an interstellar drive when they
discovered paratemporal transposition and subsequently abandon their
interest in interstellar travel.)
Down Styphon!
David
--
"You
know, most of the wars they've been fighting, lately, on the
Europo-American Sector have been, at least in part, motivated by
rivalry for oil fields." - H. Beam Piper, "Temple Trouble," 1951
~
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Jack Russell
08-24-2009
23:03 UT
|
It seems to me that there should be multiple sectors of 1st level. At
the very minimum, one where cross-time transposition became possible,
and one where it never happened. I suspect the non-timeline sector
would have used up all the resources and either left for the stars
(they have had millinia to get the tech straight on that since coming
to Earth) or devolved into barbarism. That's two more sub-sectors.
Even if we ignore the possibility of splitting off realities, shouldn't
those probable time-lines already exist?
Jack
< replied-to message removed by QT >
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Gilmoure
08-24-2009
23:01 UT
|
I like the idea of timelines influencing nearby timelines and that plays
well with the example of VV to the Rocket pilot (going in to a bar,
meets a girl, ends up shot dead and his extra-ego component (?) (at
work; no access to Piper) goes back and over to next timeline and
influences him to skip first bar and go elsewhere.
Look forward to
hearing your retcon of first Paratime story. As long as it has multiple
cute redheads taking showers. That's always a plus.
Gilmoure
On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 3:50 PM, QT - Lensman <
qtopic-42-tnfVKeAH3s4T@quicktopic.com> wrote:
>
< replied-to message removed by QT >
|
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Lensman
08-24-2009
22:50 UT
|
QT - Jack Russell wrote:
> Calvin Morrison created a divergent timeline when he was
> uncerimoniously dumped into the Styphon subsector, yes? Now,
> as I understand it, sectors and subsectors are created by
> divergent probabilities. Well, it seems that there would also
> become numerous divergencies from the Kalvan line. Lets assume
> it takes a bit more than someone sleeping in or waking up early
> to create a divergence. Surely the various battles Kalvan has
> fought are significant enough to cause this. Many of his
> victories were of the good fortune type, or dependant on the
> actions of others. A betrayal in one timeline may not have
> occured in another creating a divergence. I would think that
> there would be several such divergences by now.
It
would *appear* that the Kalvan timeline would, over time, develop into
a subsector, but you won't find the slightest hint in the canon that
there's more than one single timeline on which Kalvan exists.
> I would imagine that once a timeline has been identified, it
> would be "tagged" with an electronic beacon that would transmit
> a sort of homing signal...but then that signal would likely
> transmit from several timelines if it was there before the
> split. Then there is the matter of the study team. There
> would be duplicates of them as well. OY!
>
> Jack
IMHO
this is pretty strong evidence that timelines do *not* split; that
there is a fixed altho extremely large number of them. If timelines
never split (or merge), if they've all been in existence since the
beginning of time, then why are adjacent timelines more similar than
distant ones? They must exert influence over each other; or rather,
there is something exerting influence over timelines which causes a
tendency for the same events to occur on adjacent ones. Something which
damps out all but minor differences on adjacent timelines, but allows
wider differences for more distant ones. Also, one story said the
weather was the same on *all* timelines. So altho human actions and
history varies on different timelines, not everything does.
Maybe
this is like light; analyzed in one way, light is composed of waves.
Analyzed another way, light is composed of discrete photons. Which is
correct? Both, and neither. Perhaps it can be said of the timelines
that they are both one and many.
Aside from the first Paratime story, there's no hint of any
"doppleganger"
of any paratimer. And my impression is that most Piper fans would
prefer to ignore that passage in the first story. In fact, I wish
someone would write a story retconning an explanation for that which
does *not* involve multiple First Level timelines. I've got some ideas
about how to do that...
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clear ether!
Lensman
Visit the Incompleat Known Space Concordance at:
http://www.freewebs.com/knownspace/
|
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Jack Russell
08-24-2009
18:17 UT
|
I would imagine that once a timeline has been identified, it would be
"tagged" with an electronic beacon that would transmit a sort of homing
signal...but then that signal would likely transmit from several
timelines if it was there before the split. Then there is the matter
of the study team. There would be duplicates of them as well. OY!
Jack
< replied-to message removed by QT >
|
|
Gilmoure
08-24-2009
18:05 UT
|
30+ years later, yeah, should be several centuries of Kalvin timelines. I
wonder how they know which one is the study line? Or is this being
swept under the rug like the first Paratime story with Verkin Vall being
checked to see which Verkin he was (he was the para-peeper)?
Gilmoure
On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 9:09 AM, QT - Jack Russell <
qtopic-42-tnfVKeAH3s4T@quicktopic.com> wrote:
>
< replied-to message removed by QT >
|
|
Jack Russell
08-24-2009
16:09 UT
|
On this I have no information. But, it sparks another question.
Calvin
Morrison created a divergent timeline when he was uncerimoniously
dumped into the Styphon subsector, yes? Now, as I understand it,
sectors and subsectors are created by divergent probabilities. Well,
it seems that there would also become numerous divergencies from the
Kalvan line. Lets assume it takes a bit more than someone sleeping in
or waking up early to create a divergence. Surely the various battles
Kalvan has fought are significant enough to cause this. Many of his
victories were of the good fortune type, or dependant on the actions of
others. A betrayal in one timeline may not have occured in another
creating a divergence. I would think that there would be several such
divergences by now.
Jack
< replied-to message removed by QT >
|
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David Johnson
08-24-2009
15:56 UT
|
~
Structure of Paratime: Basic Sector-Group?
Folks
I
believe most of us are familiar with the general structure of
Paratime: five Levels, each divided into Sectors which are further
divided into Sub-sectors comprised of Belts of individual Timelines.
While rereading "Temple Trouble" recently though, I came across
something called the "Nilo-Mesopotamian Basic Sector-Group" which is a
_collection_ of several Sectors, including Europo-American and
Proto-Aryan where "Trouble" take place. I hadn't realized such an
organizational grouping existed before. Looking a bit more closely at
the other Paratime yarns, I see now that the Kholghoor Sector where
"Time Crime" opens is part of a different Indus-Ganges-Irriwady Basic
Sector-Group.
Has anyone else been aware of this component of
Paratime structure before? If so, are you aware of any other "Basic
Sector-Groups"? Do they exist on other Levels or are they unique to
the "largest" Fourth Level?
Down Styphon!
David
--
"The
Terro-Human Future History . . . has a historian's attention to
sociological and political detail that is unsurpassed." - John F.
Carr, Introduction to _Empire_
~
|
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Fred Ramsey
08-14-2009
16:37 UT
|
David,
The book is mostly Del Rey's professional biography. I
read it many years ago and don't remember there being anything of
substance about Beam. Maybe someone who has read it more recently can
comment further.
There are lots of copies available on Bookfinder.com, paperbacks under $10, hardcovers around $25.
|
|
David Johnson
08-09-2009
19:55 UT
|
~
Lester del Rey on H. Beam Piper?
The front page of the
Gardland hardcover editions of _Space_Viking_ and _Lord_Kalvan_ states
that they are part of a collection of 45 works selected by Lester del
Rey, with a separate introductory
volume,
_Science_Fiction,_1926-1976_, written especially for the collection.
Has anyone ever read del Rey's book? What does it have to say about
Piper and his work?
Thanks,
David
--
"Good things in the long run are often tough while they're
happening." - Otto Harkaman (H. Beam Piper), _Space_Viking_
~
|
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Lensman
08-04-2009
22:15 UT
|
QT - David Johnson wrote:
> But if Von Schlichten merely means something like "civilized"
> here then why doesn't he just say that? Why talk about Uller
> one-day being "fit to admit to the Federation"? You may be
> right, of course, but I still find it hard to ignore the fact
> that at least two of the three planets mentioned by Von
> Schlichten here have native sapient species.
I'm
not saying your suggestion is wrong, David. I was careful to
characterize my alternate suggestion with "perhaps" in two places. You
could be right. I just don't think it's conclusive, that's all.
Here's
an alternate suggestion: Odin was colonized from earth, the colony
revolted against the colonial governor, some time passed as an
independent planet, then it had to be subjugated and brought back into
the Federation. Wouldn't that fit the passage just as well?
Of
course, you suggested something similar to that yourself, in the parent
post. Since this would not require that we invent a native race for
Odin which is not mentioned anywhere, ISTM that the principle of
Occam's Razor says we should prefer this scenario.
Just my 2&#A2;.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clear ether!
Lensman
Visit the Incompleat Known Space Concordance at:
http://www.freewebs.com/knownspace/
|
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David Johnson
08-04-2009
13:54 UT
|
~
David "Lensman" Sooby wrote:
>> In a couple of centuries, this planet will
>> be fit to admit to the Federation, like Odin and Freya."
>>
>> "Fit to admit to the Federation, like _Odin_"?
>
> Perhaps you're reading more into it than the author intended.
> Perhaps the character was just giving two examples of "highly
> civilized" planets. I don't think we need to assume a race of
> Odin natives from this passage.
I
agree it's unclear and I've wondered if Von Schlichten isn't merely
referring to some process by which _any_ extra-solar planet is
admitted
to the Terran Federation. This is an early Federation-era yarn and
there must have been a point early in the expansion of the Federation
when a decision was made to start admitting colonized extra-solar
planets to a Federation which had consisted up to that point only of
planets in the Sol system like Terra and Venus and Mars (and perhaps
Luna, Mercury, and Titan). So perhaps that political innovation was
novel enough to still be forefront in Von Schlichten's mind.
But
if Von Schlichten merely means something like "civilized" here then
why doesn't he just say that? Why talk about Uller one-day being "fit
to admit to the Federation"? You may be right, of course, but I
still find it hard to ignore the fact that at least two of the three
planets mentioned by Von Schlichten here have native sapient species.
Remember Ashmodai! Remember Belphegor!
David
--
"I hope I've made the point, without over-making it, that the
proletariat aren't good and virtuous, only stupid, weak and
incompetent." - H. Beam Piper (on "A Slave is a Slave")
~
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Lensman
08-04-2009
06:51 UT
|
QT - David Johnson wrote:
> Natives on Odin!?!
>
> Folks,
>
> Here's a quote I ran across the other day in _Uller_Uprising_;
> it's General Von Schlichten speaking after the outbreak of
> rebellion among the native Ullerans:
>
> "There's going to have to be a Terran seizure of political power
> in every part of this planet that we occupy. . . . Then, we
> can start giving them government by law instead of by royal
> decree, and real courts of justice. . . . And, gradually,
> abolish serfdom. In a couple of centuries, this planet will
> be fit to admit to the Federation, like Odin and Freya."
>
> "Fit to admit to the Federation, like _Odin_"?
Perhaps
you're reading more into it than the author intended. Perhaps the
character was just giving two examples of "highly civilized" planets. I
don't think we need to assume a race of Odin natives from this
passage.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clear ether!
Lensman
Visit the Incompleat Known Space Concordance at:
http://www.freewebs.com/knownspace/
|
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David Johnson
08-03-2009
14:01 UT
|
~
Natives on Odin!?!
Folks,
Here's a quote I ran across
the other day in _Uller_Uprising_; it's General Von Schlichten
speaking after the outbreak of rebellion among the native Ullerans:
"There's
going to have to be a Terran seizure of political power in every part
of this planet that we occupy. . . . Then, we can start giving them
government by law instead of by royal decree, and real courts of
justice. . . . And, gradually, abolish serfdom. In a couple of
centuries, this planet will be fit to admit to the
Federation, like Odin and Freya."
"Fit
to admit to the Federation, like _Odin_"? Now, we know that Freya
had a native "Freyo-human" race which, among other things, prevented
the original Terran colonists from claiming rights to the entire
planet. But what could have been the situation on Odin that would
have led to it being _admitted_ to the Federation in some context
which Von Schlicht finds relevant to the pacification of the native
population on Uller? I had always assumed that Odin had simply been
colonized by settlers from Terra (perhaps under the auspices of a
chartered company).
I'm not sure of any suggestion elsewhere in
the Terro-human Future History (TFH) yarns of a native race on Odin
and _Uprising_ has many inconsistencies in it, being written several
years before any of the rest of Beam's TFH yarns. Or, could it be
that instead of a native race, the early Terran settlers on Odin
somehow managed to enjoy an early period _independent_ of the
Federation? If so, that would be something new too.
Anyone run across any references to Odin elsewhere which might shed any insight on Von Schlichten's comments here?
Remember Ashmodai! Remember Belphegor!
David
--
"And
you know what English is? The result of the efforts of Norman
men-at-arms to make dates with Saxon barmaids. . . ." - Victor Grego
(H. Beam Piper), _Fuzzy_Sapiens_
~
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