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H. Beam Piper @ Zarthani.net

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253 Lensman 06-23-2009 23:04 UT	QT - David Johnson wrote: > David "Lensman" Sooby wrote: > >> So far as I know, there are no animals which make tools to be used >> at an indefinite later time, or carry them when there is no >> immediate need to use them. Humans, and Fuzzies, do so. > > That's a keen observation. Thank you, but I don't claim it's an original idea. Animal behavior is a subject of special interest to me, and much study. > Why do you suppose Beam did not have one > of his characters make it? Had he not made this realization himself, > or was he perhaps trying to inflate the case _against_ Fuzzy sapience > for dramatic reasons? Well ISTM, either (1) Piper wasn't aware of simple tool use by some animals, or (2) he chose not to bring that into the discussion and confuse the issue. I have no idea which is the case. Certainly in /Fuzzies and Other People/, Piper displays some sophistication in his descriptions of aboriginal behavior, and of biology. But did he have much knowledge of animal behavior at the earlier time /Little Fuzzy/ was written, or was the sophistication he later displayed a result of later study? At any rate, when I'm reading /Little Fuzzy/ or a sequel and I run across a reference to "tool use", I just read that as shorthand for a more sophisticated delineation between "dumb animals" and technological tool users. Even the... what was the name of that borderline case, the Kroogah?... made stone axes and carried them into combat. That's a more sophisticated use of tools than, say, one of Darwin's finches using a cactus needle to skewer bugs under tree bark, thus filling the woodpecker niche without developing a woodpecker bill. Or a chimp grabbing a stick and using it to knock bananas down from a tree branch. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Clear ether! Lensman Visit the Incompleat Known Space Concordance at: http://www.freewebs.com/knownspace/
252 David Johnson 06-23-2009 14:39 UT	David "Lensman" Sooby wrote: > So far as I know, there are no > animals which make tools to be used at an indefinite later > time, or carry them when there is no immediate need to use > them. Humans, and Fuzzies, do so. That's a keen observation. Why do you suppose Beam did not have one of his characters make it? Had he not made this realization himself, or was he perhaps trying to inflate the case _against_ Fuzzy sapience for dramatic reasons? Yeek! David -- "You know, it's never a mistake to take a second look at anything that everybody believes." - Rodney Maxwell (H. Beam Piper), "Graveyard of Dreams"
251 Lensman 06-23-2009 07:07 UT	QT - David PiperFan Johnson wrote: > The Economist has an interesting article about tool-using--and > tool-making--birds which draws into question the usefulness of > this capability in determining sapience: > > http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13726 > 746 People like to separate objects and animals into nice neat categories-- to "pigeonhole" them. Pigeonholes make for nice neat categories; when you put an object into a pigeonhole, there's no question about which pigeonhole it's in, or where the boundaries between the pigeonholes are. Nature is rather more messy. It doesn't have nice, neat, clearly defined categories which never overlap. Frex the categories of mammal and reptile seem fairly clear and distinct, until you look at the Platypus and the Echidna (spiny hedgehog)... which, like mammals, are warm-blooded, have fur, and produce milk... but, like reptiles, they lay eggs and have reptile-like skeletons. The line between tool-using and non-tool-using is similarly blurred. For an indicator of intelligence, it would be better to scrap the overly broad stipulation of "tool using", and stipulate a more demanding achievement of "prepare and carry tools for future use". Quite a few animals pick up or make tools to be used on the spot. So far as I know, there are no animals which make tools to be used at an indefinite later time, or carry them when there is no immediate need to use them. Humans, and Fuzzies, do so. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Clear ether! Lensman Visit the Incompleat Known Space Concordance at: http://www.freewebs.com/knownspace/
250 David Johnson 06-20-2009 16:44 UT	~ Murder in the Gunroom original on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350215497167 This is a great price for the original, hardcover edition, less even than what the Old Earth Books reprint usually sells for. Enjoy (and good luck), David -- "And you know what English is? The result of the efforts of Norman men-at-arms to make dates with Saxon barmaids. . . ." - Victor Grego (H. Beam Piper), _Fuzzy_Sapiens_ ~
249 David "PiperFan" Johnson 06-14-2009 16:52 UT	~ Rooks and Fuzzies? The Economist has an interesting article about tool-using--and tool-making--birds which draws into question the usefulness of this capability in determining sapience: http://www.economist.com/science/displayst...m?story_id=13726746 Yeek! David ~

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